Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 103
# 11
09-28-2012, 05:57 AM
As i see it cruisers weapons have to do twice the damage of escorts weapons, i naval terms
do you guys think that a destroyer have any chance against a cruiser? not at all, cruisers have biger calibre weapons more range and armor so bring this concept to space and apply
it, you have to concepts that can bring some sense here, first range extend the range of cruiser weapons (beam arrays) to 15 would be great, and calibre making beam arrays do more damage.

Actually the tradeoff of the energy drain doing by beams arrays are too big compared to DHC that is mitigated by the weapons power modifier of escorts/destroyers resulting in a inefficent weapon in terms of damage something can be make here also.

And the problem is bigger with dreadnoughts that does irrelevant damage compared with escorts/destroyers the problem is that they are seeing as tanks but forgetting their superior firepower so the concept is that a ship that can?t equip DHC is not a damage dealer adopting the role of auxiliar ship, just the opposite at it should be.

So i think escorts/destroyer should be means of add more damage to a specific target not to adopt the role of main damage dealers the main damage dealer is the dreadnought/cruiser with their hig calibre weapons and range and with their bigger power core that can satisfy the enrgy demands during combat situations .

But this is all mental masturbation because in the end we all know what is going to happen
since is more easy to build a ship from scratch and pack it into a box than rework everything that is already done as it should.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,124
# 12
09-28-2012, 07:52 AM
A lot of people really don't understand the balance, to be honest most cruiser captains are terrible. They aren't forced to better themselves.

An escort is successful because the damage it produces, while large, is also heavily focused. It takes out a shield facing, then their hull, a cruiser slowly flies around hitting shield facing after shield facing, you waste all your potential. If you ever actually logged a battle (which I know you don't) you'd see escorts turrets actually do nearly as much damage as their cannons, but the cannons are bursty, causing real damage. If cruisers learned this they'd be better off.

The escort gets penalized in durability, but most escorts are forced to learn to avoid dying, cruisers rarely maximize this. Escorts have no utility, they damage and take damage, its the point of a warship. Cruisers heal, tank, control and support damage all in one.

A cruiser gaining firepower comes at the cost of its losing durability, just like the Assault refit. A slow moving very heavy tactical like cruiser would be so ineffective it isn't funny, it doesn't make sense.

Oh, and there was a very long time that escorts (and science) received no new ships at all, it was all cruisers for zen, all cruisers for lock boxes, then they focused on escorts, now science ships are being filled out, its a process, stop your ridiculous prejudice.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 13
09-28-2012, 07:54 AM
Cruisers do a lot of damage... over the time. Escorts do a lot of damage in short time. Comparing this to real life ships cruisers are like ww2 battleships - huge guns, lot of damage but you need time to deliver it all it. Escorts are like destroyers. Small guns, not much range, but they have... torpedoes.

Now, beam arrays are equivalent of big guns in naval warfare. They have better range then DHC and while they are not as powerfull per shot as DHC can deliver more damage over the time as you can keep your target longer under fire. DHC is an equivalent of torpedo. It has smaller effective range but it is delivering it's damage in a burst way and through this able to kill things faster then beam array. Beams are not worse then DHC, they operate differently.

Now, in STO has two other problems. First one is the the limited (yeah) arc of fire for beam arrays. With the manoeuvrability of escorts and the fact that most combat is done over short distances does not make it better.

Second problem is that current healing powers and BOFF layouts that escorts have allow them to overtank. They can take all the damage from cruiser and cruisers dont have anything to solve this problem.

If you mix those two problems it ends with escorts being virtually indestructible as long as they are piloted by semi-competent pilot. They can stay away from half of your damage (more if your are not 8-beam cruiser) and they can easily tank what's left.

Here are things that are, from my point of view, needed to fix it, and all those things are not, I think, complicated from programming point of view and should be easily implemented:

1) Beams should have 360 degrees coverage, or at least over 300 to minimize the chance for escort to stay away from HALF of the firepower (while cruiser has no such chance).

2) Escorts should get hull/shields nerf. Most should look like Bird of Pray with hull out of glass and tinfoil shields.

3) Escorts need a minus modifier for aux and shields. A big one so that their tanking/healing abilities get a nerf. They should not be able to heal themselves as effectively as cruisers or sci ships are.

4) Tactical Team should still work as automatic shield distribution but it should be slowed to to the same level (or just slightly aboce) as manual shield balancing.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,004
# 14
09-28-2012, 08:13 AM
here we go again, a typical "give cruisers more firepower!"
not even a week past since the last one, from the same people with the same agenda.

i give it another 2 pages until the super beam comes up again. That escorts are over powered was already covered on page one and two.

Most of the people crying for a more powerfull damage cruiser are either incapable of building one or lack the skill to do any damage in a cruiser. Of course not every cruiser is build for damage, but some are...D'kora for instance, that ship is a monster. In the right hands, you have a full tank, dealing damage close to an escort. Same goes for the fleet vor'cha.
Also the regent, AHC retrofit and the tac oddy can be real mean damage dealers, but if you stick to the clumsy assault/star/exploration cruisers no wonder your punsh is like the sting of a mosquito.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 15
09-28-2012, 09:57 AM
I say give the ESCORTS some of that good'ol Cruiser tanking if the Cruisers are to get some buffed up firepower.
If we are gonna blurr the lines to satisfy player desires then blur them in both directions or not at all.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 176
# 16
09-28-2012, 10:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I say give the ESCORTS some of that good'ol Cruiser tanking if the Cruisers are to get some buffed up firepower.
If we are gonna blurr the lines to satisfy player desires then blur them in both directions or not at all.
They're already pretty blurred on the escort side. Escorts dodge like mad and still do amazing DPS. Cruisers do low damage and are one Sub Nuke doff away from a terrible death.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,731
# 17
09-28-2012, 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
here we go again, a typical "give cruisers more firepower!"
not even a week past since the last one, from the same people with the same agenda.

i give it another 2 pages until the super beam comes up again. That escorts are over powered was already covered on page one and two.

Most of the people crying for a more powerfull damage cruiser are either incapable of building one or lack the skill to do any damage in a cruiser. Of course not every cruiser is build for damage, but some are...D'kora for instance, that ship is a monster. In the right hands, you have a full tank, dealing damage close to an escort. Same goes for the fleet vor'cha.
Also the regent, AHC retrofit and the tac oddy can be real mean damage dealers, but if you stick to the clumsy assault/star/exploration cruisers no wonder your punsh is like the sting of a mosquito.
The pure fact that a Frerengi Marauder or Galor class is able to generate more firpower than a Galaxy class or assault Cruiser is just hilarious. If you would know anything about Star Trek, you would know that. This hasn't anything to do with game balance this is the devs malice against people wanting more Star Trek "realism" in STO.

Creating a satisfying amount of firepower on a crusier has nothing to to with the incapability of some people to to a decent build. This is the same argument some people bring up when they say "if the ship isn't good, it the fault of the player", so these people have more confidence in cryptics devs making a good designed ship than several hunderd people that say this isn't the case.
Some ships are just badly designed with a complete wrong premise in mind. Cruisers in Star Trek never where pure tanks, they where multi role ships. No matter how they where designated.
CRYPTIC made cruisers slow unmaneuverable bricks.
CRYPTIC made cruiser having virtually no noticeable firepower. Yeah, you can tickle your enemy to death (if you can keep yourself from falling to sleep), if he is stupid enoug not to disengage, heal and attack you again.
CRYPTIC made Escorts highly maneuverable (and thus very hard to hit) ships that can easily manage to survive a cruisers boardside for several minutes.
CRYPTIC made Escorts so fast they can easily outrun any other ships if things go wrong.
CRYPTIC made Escorts firepower so powerful no other ship even comes close to it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I say give the ESCORTS some of that good'ol Cruiser tanking if the Cruisers are to get some buffed up firepower.
If we are gonna blurr the lines to satisfy player desires then blur them in both directions or not at all.
If you look purely on Hull, BOFF & Console layout you maybe could have a point here, but since escorts can virtually dodge 1/3 - 1/2 of a cruisers firepower they are already more than on par with them. The problem is that cruisers have just a little more hull (which isn't much of a problem, since hull damage can be "healed" in a matter of seconds).

If all healing abilities in STO had a much longer cooldown, hull HP had a much bigger impact than it has now. But since this isn't the case, escorts can easily negate any damage they receive from a Cruiser, while seriously damaging the cruiser, since their Firepower is just beyond good and evil.

That's the main problem i see in STO (besides the fact that the whole "balace" structure has nothing to do with Star Trek).



Thank you for reading.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,004
# 18
09-28-2012, 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
The pure fact that a Frerengi Marauder or Galor class is able to generate more firpower than a Galaxy class or assault Cruiser is just hilarious. If you would know anything about Star Trek, you would know that. This hasn't anything to do with game balance this is the devs malice against people wanting more Star Trek "realism" in STO.

....

That's the main problem i see in STO (besides the fact that the whole "balace" structure has nothing to do with Star Trek).



Thank you for reading.
but also fail to acnolage that the galaxy can take a lot more beating in exchange for less firepower.

while the "balance" structure has nothing to do with star trek, it is essential to make a game...and last i checked STO is a game based on star trek.
You may think this is only wordplay, but it is not. It is the developers interpretation of space combat based in the star trek universe.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 19
09-28-2012, 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scurry5 View Post
Erm, the D'Kora is a battlecruiser that can mount dual cannons, if I remember right. It's pretty similar to the Klingon battlecruisers at that, with a turn rate of just 8.(I don't know about battle mode, though.) As for the rest, the Orb Weaver, Wells Class and Korath Class are science ships that can't mount dual cannons. Also, the Qin Raptor is barely any different from the stock one that you get at level 40. I don't think it really counts.

Therefore, the only escorts that have come out in lockboxes are the JHAS and the two Temporal Destroyers.

Nevertheless, I think that escorts tank a little too well to be called squishy. I think it's mainly due to Tactical Team and speed tanking.
Not only that but many of the good escort pilots use the borg console setup with treats the escort just like it does as a cruiser. It tanks well with it and heals like a cruiser. I think that set-up needs to be nerfed a little bit or adjusted to the type of ship its applied to.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 20
09-28-2012, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zubo100 View Post
I think you misunderstood my first point. Only cruisers would get this weapon multiplier and not escorts.

And the weapons are not really that different. Sure a beam array does far less damage than a cannon, but then you can shoot 8 at the same time, but only 4 cannons. If you do a plain dps calculation (without any mods etc.) you will see that a 4 cannons 3 turrets vs. 8 beams setup is only ~15% different.

My second suggestion would improve an 8-beam setup in such a way that it would actually be superior to a cannon setup in terms of raw dps. What makes escorts so powerful are still the BOs and the console slot...
Keep in mind some ships can't fire 8 beams at once, like the Galaxy Dreadnought, because the pylons get in the way. I brought this to the Devs attention and maybe they will let the ship use it's 3 nacelle mounted arrays to combat this problem of not broadsiding.
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