Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 21
09-28-2012, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonulinu2 View Post
Escorts are fun ships beloved by many right now. It's taken time and Cryptic has finally managed to develop them into this awesome DPS, super maneuverable, destructive machine. The answer isn't to nerf tac/escorts although that would be an easy way to start to balance things out. We do that and many players will have a significantly diminished enjoyment of the game. The answer lies with the Cruisers and Sci ships.

I find it amusing when I read posts that explain how real life naval ships, and canon descriptions, are meant to justify an unbalanced gaming situation. We can rationalize all we want but the end result is that there is a significant amount of dissatisfaction in game balance. As in most MMOs there are essentially three types of ships/classes. These distinct classes are supposed to establish equitable gaming enjoyment for the player community. Each class needs it's own, unique defined role and structure that clearly differentiates it from the others so one doesn't feel like a weak step child of another, but rather contributes in it's own valuable and fun manner.

It has already been clearly established in a number of forum posts that besides being the heavy damage dealers, escorts have a disproportionate tankability or survivability given its main role. There are several ways to deal with this. Since Cruisers are meant to be THE tank for all practicable purposes (yes healer too), make them more tankable. This can be done, again as mentioned in many posts to date, by giving them, for example, a higher shield modifier, increased threat control abilities (pve), boosted skills that deal with healing/damage mitigation above and beyond that which an escort has. In other words and just as an example, TT is a wonderful skill but when everyone has it or has it with the same efficacy then it doesn't help a tank differentiate itself in damage mitigation. I bet that if you give cruisers a more meaningful tanking role you will even hear less complaints about the sorely lacking turn rates.

While we're at it let's take a look at the issue of turn rates. I'm a big proponent of increased turn rates for cruisers. They fly like a brick and it's difficult to maintain full broadside against a skilled opponent (pve but mostly pvp). And why do we cruiser captains hate this? One reason is because our already meager dps from beam arrays are even less effective because we can only get half of them on target. But if you make cruiser dps less important, because they can draw more aggro and tank better, this becomes less of an issue. While there will always be cruiser captains that want to be dps machines, they can still make builds to maximize cruiser dps but shouldn't be able to complain about challenging the dps effectiveness viz a viz escorts because of the clearly defined roles.

Although I have a VA Sci captain, I will be the first to admit my limitations in knowing how to play an effective role here. Also, I understand from a Borticus posting sci will undergo a revamp 'soon', which I hope will deal with sci's specific role similar to the way I tried to clarify that of cruisers.

I'm not trying to take up the old arguments that escorts are too strong or cruisers too weak. Just trying to get people to see that its the lack of clearly defined class roles that is contributing to all the angst. Flame me if you want and feel free to pick apart my arguments, but please keep in mind that I'm not offering definitive specific solutions, but a different way of looking at this long fought over battle. Not that this hasn't been mentioned before, but I don't think the focus has remained on mmo classic roles.
Speak for yourself, maybe you enjoy flying around in escorts causing mayhem, but everbody else that would like to fly a different ship don't. Its not fun when you are in a PVP match and see all the escort players are getting all the kills and escaping being destroyed, while you are struggling in your cruiser or science ship to stay alive. It is not fun in PVE missions when the players with escorts get all the credit for kills, earning First and 2nd place, getting the very rare drops. You and your cruiser barley kills enough, and get stuck with common or uncommon drops. Thats lopsided and unfair. The Devs rewarding a certain group of players over another is not fair and fun for all. Most true Star Trek fans favor the cruisers because that what's mostly in the shows, but the devs in this game are bent on marginalizing us to make fun for themselves and other MMO players.

Fun for all does not come with unfairness.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 22
09-28-2012, 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
A lot of people really don't understand the balance, to be honest most cruiser captains are terrible. They aren't forced to better themselves.

An escort is successful because the damage it produces, while large, is also heavily focused. It takes out a shield facing, then their hull, a cruiser slowly flies around hitting shield facing after shield facing, you waste all your potential. If you ever actually logged a battle (which I know you don't) you'd see escorts turrets actually do nearly as much damage as their cannons, but the cannons are bursty, causing real damage. If cruisers learned this they'd be better off.

The escort gets penalized in durability, but most escorts are forced to learn to avoid dying, cruisers rarely maximize this. Escorts have no utility, they damage and take damage, its the point of a warship. Cruisers heal, tank, control and support damage all in one.

A cruiser gaining firepower comes at the cost of its losing durability, just like the Assault refit. A slow moving very heavy tactical like cruiser would be so ineffective it isn't funny, it doesn't make sense.

Oh, and there was a very long time that escorts (and science) received no new ships at all, it was all cruisers for zen, all cruisers for lock boxes, then they focused on escorts, now science ships are being filled out, its a process, stop your ridiculous prejudice.
Any experienced player knows about the Borg console setup and that wipes out the durabilty issue of Escorts. Now they can shield tank with the best of them and you will never get their hull below a half using beams, before the autonimous regen brings their health back to full.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 23
09-28-2012, 01:38 PM
Its easy for escort players to say "Cruiser Captains need to better themselves," when the game is made easy for escorts with all its modifiers and multipliers. I find it ironic since escort players are less evenly tempered and are more like spoiled brats who get mad when can't drestroy something. I find myself in that situation more than once when playing PVP. If I destroy an escort player, he becomes relentlessly persistant in trying to destroy me, even in a one vs one situation. I could blow him away five times in a row and he still wouldn't get it in his mind that I was not a fluke and maybe I am too tough for him to take on. You telling us cruisers, need to better ourselves? I think you need to look in the mirror, because you throwing a tantrum because you didn't win with your almighty escort shows you have lack of patience and need to better yourself. The Devs say they are about balance and don't want to create an "I win" ship, but when they came out with alot of the escorts, making all of them able to mount DHC's, they created a fleet of "I win" ships. They also created an arrogant croud of people that antagonize players who who are flying slow turning cruisers, because they see them as easy kills. If escorts are not "I Win" ships, then explain why some playsers are naming their ships, "I Win then you die?"

The game has been given to escort players, hand over fist, so its understandable for them to object to any change bringing the performance of other ships to match their own.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,711
# 24
09-28-2012, 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post

WEscorts are SUPPOSED TO HAVE HIGH DPS. THAT'S THEIR JOB. The main problem is how much survivability they have. They have too much of that. If you reduced survivability on them, THEN that would balance them out. An escort should not be able to tank much if anything at all.
You really need to move beyond the classic trinity. Escorts are not glass canons, Cruisers are not impossible to destroy tanks that can't hurt a fly, and science vessels aren't healbots! They are ALL meant to be HYBRIDS, each favoring certain things over others.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,140
# 25
09-28-2012, 02:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
You really need to move beyond the classic trinity. Escorts are not glass canons, Cruisers are not impossible to destroy tanks that can't hurt a fly, and science vessels aren't healbots! They are ALL meant to be HYBRIDS, each favoring certain things over others.
THIS is what we are asking for!

However Cryptic don't listen and escort pilots tell us where to go, it would seem casual players have no business playing as they can't be bothered to find the perfect build, they just want to pick a ship that they like and blow stuff up, which pre season 6 they could, why shouldn't we be able to do this?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,075
# 26
09-28-2012, 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Keep in mind some ships can't fire 8 beams at once, like the Galaxy Dreadnought, because the pylons get in the way. I brought this to the Devs attention and maybe they will let the ship use it's 3 nacelle mounted arrays to combat this problem of not broadsiding.
wait what? you srsly believe that the pylons of your ship stop your beams from fireing? Rest assured, all 8 beams are fireing as intended on any design...the visuals are only cosmetic and do not allways represent the actualy fireing cycle.

hillarous actually that you brought that to the "attention" of the developement team...they surely had a good laugh.
I bet as usual without any numbers supporting that claim.

i sacrifice 5-6 boff slots for survival and heal abilities, thats whats keeping me alive not the borg set...to rely on the borg set is foolish. I use the borg set because it has more favourable stats than the other sets, the heals are just a bonus.

i'm also getting some mixed messages from you. First you say escort are generally too strong, then you claim you shoot them down on a regular bases, then they allways run away and escape defeat. You say escorts are so much superior to cruisers...yet you fail to pick one up yourself, and realize that escorts aren't that indestructable demons you think they are.

most (if not to say all) of the cruiser pilots in this thread do not use their cruiser because they think it is the best ship for their style of playing...they fly it because they like the looks. And rather to change into a ship they do not like (by the looks) they demand to beef up the ships they like best. ridiculous!
And proclaiming the cruiser is broken or not balanced, when in fact you just don't know how and when to use it is even more ridiculous.

as is this whole weekly "buff cruisers thread event" here on the forum.

all i can agree on, however, is a turnrate increase for cruisers...no ship should be lower than 8 in my opinion.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 09-28-2012 at 02:52 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,241
# 27
09-28-2012, 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post

Which doesn't change the fact that they still have much higher damage output which will still annoy OP. But we've gone over this. MANY TIMES. Escorts are SUPPOSED TO HAVE HIGH DPS. THAT'S THEIR JOB. The main problem is how much survivability they have. They have too much of that. If you reduced survivability on them, THEN that would balance them out. An escort should not be able to tank much if anything at all. But they can. So that's where they are broken.

I mean at least they got it right with the BoP, HUGE burst damage, but made of tinfoil (no offense to any BoP pilots reading this, but you probably know what I mean).

Remove the defense bonus and tractor immunity from attack pattern omega and you'll see a dramatic shift in escort uberness.

You know, as they were pre-f2p when escorts did not have this idiotic amount of defenses. They were highly maneuverable, fast, burst dps ships but neither their damage was not that much higher than a full beam cruiser firing broadside nor could it tank..at all. Its main strength was that it could maneuver and always hit the weakest shield. Back then battles were a lot more about maneuvering than about hitting the I-win-DPS key over and over again.
http://media.tumblr.com/160cacdb395f8340dac90864182ebe16/tumblr_inline_mx9yxhItkb1qg9pkt.jpg
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,825
# 28
09-28-2012, 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
but also fail to acnolage that the galaxy can take a lot more beating in exchange for less firepower.
Being able to tank only is not enough for a ship!
The tanking ability a escort has is enough to survive most encounters. Being able to tank the quadruple amount of damage or time is simply not needed. I would gladly sacrifice some survivability to get more firepower on some ships.


Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
while the "balance" structure has nothing to do with star trek, it is essential to make a game...and last i checked STO is a game based on star trek.
You may think this is only wordplay, but it is not. It is the developers interpretation of space combat based in the star trek universe.
I have seen other Star Trek games where Cruiseres aren't doomed to serve only as tanks without being able to generate a satisfying amount of firepower.
It's the developers interpretation of Star Trek which is totally wrong and flawed.
They took the most iconic ships (cruisers) and made them boring flying bricks. On the other hand they took the defiant and made a whole branch of ship types like it (escorts) and made them the most powerful ships in "their" Star Trek game. If that isn't weird then i don't know.


Thank you for reading.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,206
# 29
09-28-2012, 03:10 PM
I see a lot of "escort captains this" "cruiser captains that" do people really only pilot one type of ship? Even when I only had 1 level 50 I would switch from escort to cruiser and back on occaision for variety. You guys really can't understand both sides of this if you only pilot one or the other.

I think cruisers and escorts are all just fine, the balance is pretty good. You can even out damage escorts sometimes at the cost of some survivavbility in a cruiser if set up right, escpecially if you are in an Oddy, Bortasqu, or Fleet Vorcha.

Where the imbalance lies is the gear. MACO and 3pc borg is overpowered and this needs to be balanced. The 4pc borg set should be required for the shield heal, and the 3pc set should give the tractor beam thus forcing ships to choose between full borg, MACO, Omega or HG sets. Cruisers will still be able to tank good without MACO and 3pc borg, and escorts won't be able to quite as much anymore.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,140
# 30
09-28-2012, 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrskyfaller View Post
You know, as they were pre-f2p when escorts did not have this idiotic amount of defenses. They were highly maneuverable, fast, burst dps ships but neither their damage was not that much higher than a full beam cruiser firing broadside nor could it tank..at all. Its main strength was that it could maneuver and always hit the weakest shield. Back then battles were a lot more about maneuvering than about hitting the I-win-DPS key over and over again.
This was also true for a short period of time post F2P going live and frankly I LOVED it back then it was better than I had expected, even when I hit VA it was still good nicely balanced with no ship doing too much more damage than any other because it was less about the build and more about how the player USED the build they had and as a result I personally thing the game and the players of the game were better than they are now with less escorts in PvE (effectively) saying to the team "relax, I got this" and more looking at their team and saying "Hey, you wanna gimme a hand here?"

Back then team members talked to one another, worked on their strengths and made up for each-others weaknesses, now you fly into an STF, count the escorts and assess from that the level of success you're going to have, with the current system nine times out of ten if you son't have 2 escorts in CSE (1 to guard the Kang and one to kill nanite probes and cubes) you aren't gonna get the optional.

I say lets go back to the old days when people were friendlier in game because they needed one another's help to bring down a big target but at the same time everyone was able (emphasis there-upon) to solo pretty much anything in the game if you cared enough to perfect the ship build, otherwise you still had the ability to look after yourself and ask for a hand if you needed it
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