Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 757
# 101
10-01-2012, 08:49 PM
tl:dr whole thread.

My 2c. Tie heals and BOFF team abilities to crew compliment.

Cruisers have 2 thousand or so souls on board yet they die off quicker in a cruiser and can't effect repairs better or faster than an escort with 20 people on board.

How can you send an engi/tac/sci team to repair your ship if you have no crew left?

Alter this and escorts become more squishy and cruisers more tanky.
Sci ships are perhaps the middle ground where they'd stay the same heal capability wise.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 102
10-01-2012, 09:44 PM
Check this out. I was in a PVP Capture & Hold match today. I was kind of late to the battle so everyon else was busy battling and I had no teammates so I wandered and destroyed a Galaxy pet sauser, pissing off it's owner. Me and this Galaxy-R was battling the whole match killing neither. He was in the battle section Galaxy using Borg/Maco setup with temporal gear, and he was armed with polarized phaser beams and a transphasic torpedo cluster. He could out manuvered me so he stayed on my rear attacking. My rear is just all beams and I couldn't damage him past 96% without his autonimous regeneration activating puting him back at 100%. His shile would not wear down for anything. All that being said, he didn't do much to me either, even while slowing me down to a crawl with his temporal blast, and I'm not using Borg/ Maco crap. We just battled till the end of the match. He told me how slow I was and I told him how much of a useless brick he was. The fact that he can't arm cannons made him less of a threat to me. I have been in the same type of battle with a Wells Class, he had the temp stuff, Borg/ Maco setup with Dual Cannons. He tore me up and I couldn't do anything to him. All i could do was run, using Deuturium reserves. The clear difference is that the Wells had Dual cannons and boosted damage mods, multipliers, and the Galaxy-R has no mods or mutipliers for dps, and can't arm DC. Beams are totally garbage in this game. The only type ship that can do well with them are science ships because they are better at targeting subsystems.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 103
10-01-2012, 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Check this out. I was in a PVP Capture & Hold match today. I was kind of late to the battle so everyon else was busy battling and I had no teammates so I wandered and destroyed a Galaxy pet sauser, pissing off it's owner. Me and this Galaxy-R was battling the whole match killing neither. He was in the battle section Galaxy using Borg/Maco setup with temporal gear, and he was armed with polarized phaser beams and a transphasic torpedo cluster. He could out manuvered me so he stayed on my rear attacking. My rear is just all beams and I couldn't damage him past 96% without his autonimous regeneration activating puting him back at 100%. His shile would not wear down for anything. All that being said, he didn't do much to me either, even while slowing me down to a crawl with his temporal blast, and I'm not using Borg/ Maco crap. We just battled till the end of the match. He told me how slow I was and I told him how much of a useless brick he was. The fact that he can't arm cannons made him less of a threat to me. I have been in the same type of battle with a Wells Class, he had the temp stuff, Borg/ Maco setup with Dual Cannons. He tore me up and I couldn't do anything to him. All i could do was run, using Deuturium reserves. The clear difference is that the Wells had Dual cannons and boosted damage mods, multipliers, and the Galaxy-R has no mods or mutipliers for dps, and can't arm DC. Beams are totally garbage in this game. The only type ship that can do well with them are science ships because they are better at targeting subsystems.
I feel that you could boost Beam Array Damage to the same levels as DHC, drop their power consumption to 8 and increase their cycle time. Eliminate DBB from the game all together.
Reduce the cycle time and decrease the power consumption to 7 on DHC's, and the DHC would still be the superior DPS option due to their better shield penetration, stat stacking and more effective CRF and CSV abilities.

For an Escort getting caught in a Cruiser broadside would be a serious concern, even so that doesn't change their tactics when fighting a Cruiser, just reinforces them.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,005
# 104
10-02-2012, 02:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Check this out. I was in a PVP Capture & Hold match today. I was kind of late to the battle so everyon else was busy battling and I had no teammates so I wandered and destroyed a Galaxy pet sauser, pissing off it's owner. Me and this Galaxy-R was battling the whole match killing neither. He was in the battle section Galaxy using Borg/Maco setup with temporal gear, and he was armed with polarized phaser beams and a transphasic torpedo cluster. He could out manuvered me so he stayed on my rear attacking. My rear is just all beams and I couldn't damage him past 96% without his autonimous regeneration activating puting him back at 100%. His shile would not wear down for anything. All that being said, he didn't do much to me either, even while slowing me down to a crawl with his temporal blast, and I'm not using Borg/ Maco crap. We just battled till the end of the match. He told me how slow I was and I told him how much of a useless brick he was. The fact that he can't arm cannons made him less of a threat to me. I have been in the same type of battle with a Wells Class, he had the temp stuff, Borg/ Maco setup with Dual Cannons. He tore me up and I couldn't do anything to him. All i could do was run, using Deuturium reserves. The clear difference is that the Wells had Dual cannons and boosted damage mods, multipliers, and the Galaxy-R has no mods or mutipliers for dps, and can't arm DC. Beams are totally garbage in this game. The only type ship that can do well with them are science ships because they are better at targeting subsystems.
well fisrt, 2 cruisers (i assume you used a cruiser too) will allways engage in endless battle with each other. Even if both have close to no skill or idea of setup.

second, the mobius killed you because of your own incapability to equip superior gear, which the maco borg combo just is for any ship, especially cruisers.

and 3rd, that guy probably didn't even need to be in a mobius ship to rip you a new one.
and yes, based on what i read about your pvp experiance and general postings, it is save to say for me you are at best a below average player...a captain kirk, as many like to call those players.
If you need to run in a cruiser from an escort...you are doing something horribly wrong.
Go pro or go home
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 105
10-02-2012, 04:32 AM
A) superior gear should not be so superior to give one player decisive advantage over other. One should still be competitive (with more skill, but still) with Mk X/Mk XI gear gained on missions or bought in exchange. STO fails here;

B) if an escorts pilot knows what he is doing, then he is invulnerable to the cruiser. It does not have enough firepower to blast through even most basic selfbuff like TT1 and EPtS1 with full broadside. And after escort get's on it's six then cruiser can use maks half of his firepower while still needing to deal with all/most of an escort. Most of what cruiser can do is to force escort to disengage with no ability to follow up and end the job.

Cruisers should not die to one escort, even two. But their inability to kill an escort even in 1v1 is making them rather silly choice unless you are healer at hart and want to support the group and do nothing else.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 405
# 106
10-02-2012, 06:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
A) superior gear should not be so superior to give one player decisive advantage over other. One should still be competitive (with more skill, but still) with Mk X/Mk XI gear gained on missions or bought in exchange. STO fails here;

B) if an escorts pilot knows what he is doing, then he is invulnerable to the cruiser. It does not have enough firepower to blast through even most basic selfbuff like TT1 and EPtS1 with full broadside. And after escort get's on it's six then cruiser can use maks half of his firepower while still needing to deal with all/most of an escort. Most of what cruiser can do is to force escort to disengage with no ability to follow up and end the job.

Cruisers should not die to one escort, even two. But their inability to kill an escort even in 1v1 is making them rather silly choice unless you are healer at hart and want to support the group and do nothing else.
A) This is already possible. You absolutely can defeat players using the 'best' gear with cheaper gear from missions etc. As you say, it takes superior skill to do so - and some of that skill includes understanding STO's gear system, and making sure the gear you are using synergizes well with the powers you've selected and the weapons you are running.

B) If a cruiser pilot knows what he is doing, he is invulnerable to an escort. Cruiser heals have the ability to blunt even the most powerful alpha strike, and once in a slugging match the escort's limited heals can't keep up with the sustained pressure damage from a cruiser. At best the escort will be forced to disengage and hope the cruiser chases him into a trap.

As for you last comment - Why should cruisers not ever be killable by escorts? Because you like cruisers? For all the kvetching that has gone on in this thread about how escort captains just want to have a 'super-ship', I keep seeing posts like this that seem to assert that cruisers should just be the best at everything.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 107
10-02-2012, 07:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
well fisrt, 2 cruisers (i assume you used a cruiser too) will allways engage in endless battle with each other. Even if both have close to no skill or idea of setup.

second, the mobius killed you because of your own incapability to equip superior gear, which the maco borg combo just is for any ship, especially cruisers.

and 3rd, that guy probably didn't even need to be in a mobius ship to rip you a new one.
and yes, based on what i read about your pvp experiance and general postings, it is save to say for me you are at best a below average player...a captain kirk, as many like to call those players.
If you need to run in a cruiser from an escort...you are doing something horribly wrong.
SEE THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT GUYS, WHEN IT COMES TO CERTAIN ESCORT PLAYERS LIKE BAUDI. He doesn't make his own threads, but he will jump on everybody else's, not saying anything positive and bashes everyone for not flying in his type ship or sharing his build. Jerks don't ever see past their ownself. Everyone is stupid and less than a person than they. Its wonder why this guy is still in the forums. Nobody in here likes you or respects anything you have to say, Baudi. When you are you going to get it?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 108
10-02-2012, 07:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
A) superior gear should not be so superior to give one player decisive advantage over other. One should still be competitive (with more skill, but still) with Mk X/Mk XI gear gained on missions or bought in exchange. STO fails here;
You are partially right on this, it is a STO fail though not becuase superior gear gives a decisive advantage over others but becuase Superior gear is needed to compete at the high end PvP.
Unfortunately its something the Devs can not fix becuase its already in place, if removed the playerbase that does not adapt will only ***** about some other aspect they believe is keeping them from being a PvP god and Cryptic makes money off the P2W they will not give up.

Quote:
B) if an escorts pilot knows what he is doing, then he is invulnerable to the cruiser. It does not have enough firepower to blast through even most basic selfbuff like TT1 and EPtS1 with full broadside. And after escort get's on it's six then cruiser can use maks half of his firepower while still needing to deal with all/most of an escort. Most of what cruiser can do is to force escort to disengage with no ability to follow up and end the job.
As others have pointed out time and time again, if the Cruiser knows what he is doing the Cruiser is invulnerable to the Escorts attacks. Seen it many times in PvP, 3-5 Escorts chasing a Cruiser and getting nowhere as the Cruiser continuously heals itself back to full becuase the Cruiser can use the Escort tricks of TT+EPTS1 much better than the escort can plus bring more high end heals that the Escort can't.
If an Escort gets on your 6 in combat then reverse course and let him fly by you to be in your forward arc, flip sideways and then broadside him. Let fly with some EWP or VTR first to trap him, Try Tractor Beam or Target Subsystem Engines to trap them.
Use DOffs in your builds that accent the idea you are attempting. Use equipment that helps highlight you primary attacks or disables. Build to a purpose and stop trying to build to be a jack of all things equally or you will never perform like you wish you could.

Quote:
Cruisers should not die to one escort, even two. But their inability to kill an escort even in 1v1 is making them rather silly choice unless you are healer at hart and want to support the group and do nothing else.
I've seen Cruisers who couldn't even die to 5 Escorts, how do you explain them?
I've killed Escorts in 1v1s in my Cruiser before, how do you explain that?
If you do not wish to be a support Cruiser then pick a cruiser that accents firepower more and build it to that purpose. Cruisers do not have to be just healers. Its time the Crusier fans realized this and stop wanting to be Cruiser, Escort and Science vessel all as equally effective as the classes that fall into those roles.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11
# 109
10-02-2012, 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
Cruisers do a lot of damage... over the time. Escorts do a lot of damage in short time. Comparing this to real life ships cruisers are like ww2 battleships - huge guns, lot of damage but you need time to deliver it all it. Escorts are like destroyers. Small guns, not much range, but they have... torpedoes.

Now, beam arrays are equivalent of big guns in naval warfare. They have better range then DHC and while they are not as powerfull per shot as DHC can deliver more damage over the time as you can keep your target longer under fire. DHC is an equivalent of torpedo. It has smaller effective range but it is delivering it's damage in a burst way and through this able to kill things faster then beam array. Beams are not worse then DHC, they operate differently.

Now, in STO has two other problems. First one is the the limited (yeah) arc of fire for beam arrays. With the manoeuvrability of escorts and the fact that most combat is done over short distances does not make it better.

Second problem is that current healing powers and BOFF layouts that escorts have allow them to overtank. They can take all the damage from cruiser and cruisers dont have anything to solve this problem.

If you mix those two problems it ends with escorts being virtually indestructible as long as they are piloted by semi-competent pilot. They can stay away from half of your damage (more if your are not 8-beam cruiser) and they can easily tank what's left.

Here are things that are, from my point of view, needed to fix it, and all those things are not, I think, complicated from programming point of view and should be easily implemented:

1) Beams should have 360 degrees coverage, or at least over 300 to minimize the chance for escort to stay away from HALF of the firepower (while cruiser has no such chance).

2) Escorts should get hull/shields nerf. Most should look like Bird of Pray with hull out of glass and tinfoil shields.

3) Escorts need a minus modifier for aux and shields. A big one so that their tanking/healing abilities get a nerf. They should not be able to heal themselves as effectively as cruisers or sci ships are.

4) Tactical Team should still work as automatic shield distribution but it should be slowed to to the same level (or just slightly aboce) as manual shield balancing.
Just No...
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
# 110
10-02-2012, 07:35 AM
Quote:
I keep seeing posts like this that seem to assert that cruisers should just be the best at everything.
Currently the escorts get this position of being best at everything. Ok, maybe not best, but can do "anything" that this game needs. I do not want the cruiser to be best at everything. I would simply like it to be at least some danger to escort. Or say it in other way: to be as much danger to the escort as escort is to cruiser. And currently it is not.

There is difference in tankiness between escort and cruiser and as well as power between DHC and Beam Array. The lil problem is that escorts outside of BOFF tanking that's available to escort escort has additional damage mitigation with it's speed. Which means that cruiser is not a danger to escort at all.

Strip cruiser and escort of anything. Literally anything but basic shields, weapons and engine. No BOFF, DOFF and other stuff. Cruiser will die before he makes a dent in escort shield. Cruiser damage is low, he should be more resilient, but without BOFFs the difference between escort and cruiser damage and additional cruiser hull, lowered escort shield is not enough.

Cruiser is a weaker ship by design. Simply.

Quote:
I've seen Cruisers who couldn't even die to 5 Escorts, how do you explain them?
I have too. Was even on the escort side once trying to kill some Vor'cha. But it was half a year ago and never seen something like this recently.

Quote:
I've killed Escorts in 1v1s in my Cruiser before, how do you explain that?
I have too. They were not the best players ever. Never killed escort who knew about engine battery and evasives.

Last edited by zarathos1978; 10-02-2012 at 07:39 AM.
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