Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 111
10-02-2012, 07:47 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Its wonder why this guy is still in the forums.
POssibly becuase he has a common fear among PvP'ers in STO?
The fear that the whinning of a fanbase with misconceptions on how Cruisers work, becuase said fanbase never saw the Enterprise not prevail in some form or fashion in the shows, will adversly change gameplay to compensate for thier lack of ability.

Quote:
Nobody in here likes you or respects anything you have to say, Baudi. When you are you going to get it?
You don't have to like him to know he speaks the truth on many of the issues the Cruiser player thinks they have and to know that he is right on mnay levels concerning this threads subject matter.

When are you going to get it that the Cruiser in STO is not near the pile of trash you believe it to be?

Many things are wrong or imbalanced with STO, but the Cruiser is not the culmination of all of them in one package.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 405
# 112
10-02-2012, 08:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
Currently the escorts get this position of being best at everything. Ok, maybe not best, but can do "anything" that this game needs. I do not want the cruiser to be best at everything. I would simply like it to be at least some danger to escort. Or say it in other way: to be as much danger to the escort as escort is to cruiser. And currently it is not.

There is difference in tankiness between escort and cruiser and as well as power between DHC and Beam Array. The lil problem is that escorts outside of BOFF tanking that's available to escort escort has additional damage mitigation with it's speed. Which means that cruiser is not a danger to escort at all.

Strip cruiser and escort of anything. Literally anything but basic shields, weapons and engine. No BOFF, DOFF and other stuff. Cruiser will die before he makes a dent in escort shield. Cruiser damage is low, he should be more resilient, but without BOFFs the difference between escort and cruiser damage and additional cruiser hull, lowered escort shield is not enough.

Cruiser is a weaker ship by design. Simply.
Escorts are NOT great at everything. GOOD escort captains can outfit their ship to barely cover the bases, but no escort is ever going to be the equal of a dedicated Cruiser-tank build in terms of survivability. It simply isn't possible. Similarly, Fed cruisers are simply not going to have the same firepower as an escort, but they can do the work to cover the bases.

As for your thought experiment, sorry, but it is an epically bad comparison. Of course the Escort will win in this scenario, because it's advantage (damage) comes in part from the weapons it can equip (dual cannons), and the advantage cruisers have comes from their healing BOFF powers. Of course if you remove healing from the equation, the healing ships will look weak. It would like saying "Remove all weapons from a ship, all tactical buffs, and just use engineering heals. The cruiser will survive longer every time, so therefore escorts are automatically weaker".

I will also say - try this out. I think the escort will win, but I bet it will be A LOT closer than you imagine. I'm also not sure what this proves in any case - is it any better design to have the Cruiser always win in this scenario? Or are you imagining that there is some magical number for damage that will make it so that both ships always blow up at the same time? Even if THAT were the case, it still creates an imbalance in the ships when you add the powers back on, unless you assume that all Boff powers are the same 'value' in power (pro tip: They aren't - healing is more powerful than damage). So yeah, nice try, but bad example.

Finally, here's a little bit for you to think about: Until the last few days, the escort I ran in PVE and PVP was a BEAMscort. I ran with no cannons at all, and in fact had only 4 beams, then I ran two torps fore and one torp aft. This is LESS firepower than most cruisers run. yet I was STILL able to wear down many opposing escorts because I could keep pressure on them at all times with my beam's wider arcs, and I could time my damage spikes from torps and Beam Overload to hit when they were low on heals. Since any cruiser could mount essentially the same weapons, any cruiser could have similar results. The fact that many players DON'T have these results says to me that the problem is the player, not the ship.

Last edited by mrtshead; 10-02-2012 at 08:17 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 113
10-02-2012, 08:02 AM
[quote=bitemepwe;5921261]
Quote:
POssibly becuase he has a common fear among PvP'ers in STO?
The fear that the whinning of a fanbase with misconceptions on how Cruisers work, becuase said fanbase never saw the Enterprise not prevail in some form or fashion in the shows, will adversly change gameplay to compensate for thier lack of ability.



You don't have to like him to know he speaks the truth on many of the issues the Cruiser player thinks they have and to know that he is right on mnay levels concerning this threads subject matter.

When are you going to get it that the Cruiser in STO is not near the pile of trash you believe it to be?

Many things are wrong or imbalanced with STO, but the Cruiser is not the culmination of all of them in one package.
When something is imbalanced and I complain about it, thats whining? Its sound like you just want to to stay on top of everything and have a onesided view of the matter.

If my ship is getting destroyed faster than it can heal, then I have no choice but to run. I refuse to use that Borg/Maco setup for two reasons: 1) It lowers my overall weapon power because the Galaxy's both X and R come without weapon modidfiers, so I have to use the Jem'hadar Engine to compensate. 2) I have principles that don't believe that a player should be indestructible in a multi-player game. It doesn't make me feel good to bully others and exploit game loopholes to win a match. That doesn't show skill of making stratigic decisions but relying on computer programs to win for you. Its no better than using a GameShark on a game system to do the fatality codes for you and all you have to press is "A" or "B."

It easy for you to try to Judge cruiser players because you don't fly one in PVP. People on the sidelines always think they know what should of done in the game until it's their turn to be in the arena. Baudi don't fly a cruiser in PVP, and doesn't have any idea how to make one a killer just as much as an escort. He just wants to say that he is better player than everyone else and that they suck. He has no stats to back it up. If you agree with that behavior than you are just as bad as he.

I say again, THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WEAPON'S BASE STATS AND HOW UNEVEN THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS NOT ABOUT SHIPS, BUILDS AND PLAYER EGO'S. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR ROCK HEADS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited by alexindcobra; 10-02-2012 at 08:51 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 114
10-02-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
SEE THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT GUYS, WHEN IT COMES TO CERTAIN ESCORT PLAYERS LIKE BAUDI. He doesn't make his own threads, but he will jump on everybody else's, not saying anything positive and bashes everyone for not flying in his type ship or sharing his build. Jerks don't ever see past their ownself. Everyone is stupid and less than a person than they. Its wonder why this guy is still in the forums. Nobody in here likes you or respects anything you have to say, Baudi. When you are you going to get it?
How dare he disagree with your poorly-thought out, ill-conceived, laughable misgivings? He must be a jerk! Let's go make a thread in the FAQ section to ask for his censorship!

We've got ourselves a fine Lewis Prothero, here.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 405
# 115
10-02-2012, 08:25 AM
[quote=alexindcobra;5921381]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post

When something is imbalanced and I complain about it, thats whining? Its sound like you just want to to stay on top of everything and have a onesided view of the matter.
Every time I see you post something like this, it just makes me groan. Try, for one moment, to empathize with the other side of this discussion. Is it remotely possible that maybe the people who disagree with you are not part of some cabal of escort players desperate to keep the pews, but are rather strong players who have differing experiences to yours?

From my perspective, it looks like you ran out of actual arguments a long time ago, but since you can't reconcile the fact that cruisers aren't bad ships with the fact that you are blowing up a bunch without acknowledging the obvious implication, you are instead creating a conspiracy where none exists.

Also, please, PLEASE fact-check yourself before you post things. A few errors: Orb Weavers and Ferengi Marauders are NOT escorts. One is a sci ship and the other is a cruiser. Also, consoles do NOT have different stats based on the ship they are on. Some, like RCS consoles and Field Generator consoles have a greater or lesser magnitude effect, but that is because they are percentage based, and the percentage increase over the base number is always the same, it's just that some base numbers are higher.

Same thing with shields and engines - the base states on an item don't change when you switch ships - instead, the ships all have differing modifiers that affect the raw base numbers of the items in different ways.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,013
# 116
10-02-2012, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
SEE THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT GUYS, WHEN IT COMES TO CERTAIN ESCORT PLAYERS LIKE BAUDI. He doesn't make his own threads, but he will jump on everybody else's, not saying anything positive and bashes everyone for not flying in his type ship or sharing his build. Jerks don't ever see past their ownself. Everyone is stupid and less than a person than they. Its wonder why this guy is still in the forums. Nobody in here likes you or respects anything you have to say, Baudi. When you are you going to get it?
atleast i know a "little" more about the game...and when i see somebody talking BS, i try to correct him, or give my honest opinion. It is rarely sugar coating, since most is misconception i read and your posts are 100% misunderstanding and unwillingness to adapt to the game rather have the game adapt to you.

and if even one of your ideas is made reality, actual good players in cruisers would wipe the floor with any shipclass. I ask you, can you understand that there are much better players out there than you are or even i am? And can you imagine how it would be in a PVP match with 5 of them flying cruisers, that are utterly indestructible and dish out dmg that can vaporize anything in their way?

And when i read through some comments here, stating that they actually use sub optimal setups or ships (which all galaxy cruiser types actually are for current gamecontent), but still think they should perform like people that use an optimized setup, it really seems to me that some people here think they ARE captain Kirk.

And stop pretending it's only me who thinks cruisers aren't in a bad shape as you may believe.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 10-02-2012 at 08:32 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 117
10-02-2012, 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post

When something is imbalanced and I complain about it, thats whining? .
Are you saying that we have seen no whinning in this thread by the fanbase concerning cruisers, regardless if you had a part in it or not?
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 10-02-2012 at 08:35 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 118
10-02-2012, 08:51 AM
[quote=alexindcobra;5921381]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post

When something is imbalanced and I complain about it, thats whining? Its sound like you just want to to stay on top of everything and have a onesided view of the matter.

If my ship is getting destroyed faster than it can heal, then I have no choice but to run. I refuse to use that Borg/Maco setup for two reasons: 1) It lowers my overall weapon power because the Galaxy's both X and R come without weapon modidfiers, so I have to use the Jem'hadar Engine to compensate. 2) I have principles that don't believe that a player should be indestructible in a multi-player game. It doesn't make me feel good to bully others and exploit game loopholes to win a match. That doesn't show skill of making stratigic decisions but relying on computer programs to win for you. Its no better than using a GameShark on a game system to do the fatality codes for you and all you have to press is "A" or "B."

It easy for you to try to Judge cruiser players because you don't fly one in PVP. People on the sidelines always think they know what should of done in the game until it's their turn to be in the arena. Baudi don't fly a cruiser in PVP, and doesn't have any idea how to make one a killer just as much as an escort. He just wants to say that he is better player than everyone else and that they suck. He has no stats to back it up. If you agree with that behavior than you are just as bad as he.

I say again, THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WEAPON'S BASE STATS AND HOW UNEVEN THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS NOT ABOUT SHIPS, BUILDS AND PLAYER EGO'S. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR ROCK HEADS!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 119
10-02-2012, 09:01 AM
base stats of weapons are created by the Devs , not players. You can't argue if the stats show cannons do hundreads of more damage than beams. That show an imbalance, it only gets worse when you add player skill trees, ships base stats, and ship builds. The weapons need to be balanced before you can even begin to balance the ships or the game. Every ship can not arm the same type of weapons which creates an imbalance in itself.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,013
# 120
10-02-2012, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
base stats of weapons are created by the Devs , not players. You can't argue if the stats show cannons do hundreads of more damage than beams. That show an imbalance, it only gets worse when you add player skill trees, ships base stats, and ship builds. The weapons need to be balanced before you can even begin to balance the ships or the game. Every ship can not arm the same type of weapons which creates an imbalance in itself.
you completely ignore fireing arcs...again. what should a cruiser with 6 or 7 turnrate do with dual cannons? can't you see where your assumption is so obviously wrong?
Go pro or go home
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