Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 445
# 121
10-02-2012, 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
base stats of weapons are created by the Devs , not players. You can't argue if the stats show cannons do hundreads of more damage than beams. That show an imbalance, it only gets worse when you add player skill trees, ships base stats, and ship builds. The weapons need to be balanced before you can even begin to balance the ships or the game. Every ship can not arm the same type of weapons which creates an imbalance in itself.
So, wait - huh? Are you seriously trying to argue that all weapons should do the same exact damage (let's be generous and assume you mean the same effective damage normalized over range, fire arc, and rate of fire), as the first step to balance? Because that... that is fantastic. Yes, let's do that exact thing. That way, escorts, (which are the combat oriented DPS class) get to do LESS damage than cruisers, because they only have 7 weapons instead of 8.

Then, when it becomes evident that somehow the seven weapon escorts are STILL rolling you, let's go ahead and nerf the maneuverability of escorts, because that, too, is an 'imbalance'. Oh, and while we're at it, Sci ships have extra powers other ships don't have. That's not fair, let's go ahead and get rid of those. Oh, and Escorts have more Tac slots than cruisers, so, that's not fair, let's adjust those down. In fact, let's make every ship exactly like every other ship stat-wise. Also, captain powers aren't identical, so, let's get rid of them. That sounds fun.

Of course, when you are STILL getting rolled, then it will be that certain ships 'look faster' and that 'imbalance in looks' is throwing off your game. So, let's make sure that all ships look the same so that you don't have to worry about that. Then, let's make sure there is no difference in latency between different connections, because that also could be a reason why you fail.

Ugh.

Okay, so here it is in simple terms. Yes, cannons do more damage, because they have a narrower arc. Yes, escorts that are well-helmed can do much to minimize that disadvantage. Yes, the net result is that escorts will do more damage than cruisers. Since the CORE GAME DESIGN is that this should be so, it's not exactly a news flash. If you are trying to argue that escorts should not be the DPS class, well, sorry, that ship has sailed. If you are trying to argue that the damage advantage afforded to escorts is somehow insurmountable, you are flat wrong. If you are trying to say that balance means all things must be exactly equal in all ways, then you have no conception of balancing through competing strengths and weaknesses, and probably have a difficult time negotiating yourself through a game of 'rock paper scissors'.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 646
# 122
10-02-2012, 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
A) This is already possible. You absolutely can defeat players using the 'best' gear with cheaper gear from missions etc. As you say, it takes superior skill to do so - and some of that skill includes understanding STO's gear system, and making sure the gear you are using synergizes well with the powers you've selected and the weapons you are running.

B) If a cruiser pilot knows what he is doing, he is invulnerable to an escort. Cruiser heals have the ability to blunt even the most powerful alpha strike, and once in a slugging match the escort's limited heals can't keep up with the sustained pressure damage from a cruiser. At best the escort will be forced to disengage and hope the cruiser chases him into a trap.

As for you last comment - Why should cruisers not ever be killable by escorts? Because you like cruisers? For all the kvetching that has gone on in this thread about how escort captains just want to have a 'super-ship', I keep seeing posts like this that seem to assert that cruisers should just be the best at everything.
A) One set of initials... P2W makes this possible.

B) Exactly.. "Knows what he is doing"

Cruisers are BIG and I do mean BIIIGGG targets. My DHCs should NEVER and I mean NEEEEVVVEERRR miss their target whereas in an escort, I am designed to "avoid" a cruiser fire.
my new saying is "cryptic made me do it" in lieu of the the "devil"
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 123
10-02-2012, 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
base stats of weapons are created by the Devs , not players. You can't argue if the stats show cannons do hundreads of more damage than beams. That show an imbalance, it only gets worse when you add player skill trees, ships base stats, and ship builds. The weapons need to be balanced before you can even begin to balance the ships or the game. Every ship can not arm the same type of weapons which creates an imbalance in itself.
Everyship is not meant to be able to mount every type of weapon.

Cannons (the plural) do not do more damage than beams.
Cannons (single) at mark 12 white do 159 DPV/212DPS with a 180 degree firing arc.
Beam Array (single) at mark 12 white do 220 DPV/176 DPS with a 250 degree firing arc.
Dual cannons at mark 12 white do 192DPV/256 DPS with a 45 degree firing arc.
Dual Beam Banks at mark 12 white do 287 DPV/229 DPS with a 90 degree firing arc.
Dual heavy Cannons at mark 12 white do 384 DPV/256 DPS with a 45 degree firing arc.

Only the Dual cannons do more DPV than any beam array or Dual beanm array. To handicap that DPV DHCs have half the firing arc of a Dual Beam Array and 205 degrees less of a firing arc of the single Beam Array. There is no differences in the hundreds between them. Infact the DHC does less than a hundred more than a DBB in DPV and only 27 points more in DPS.

In fact if you look at the stats of teh Beams versus Cannons then one thing should be readily apparent.
Cannons are meant for Burst style attacks, hence the low DPV but high DPS, and Beams are meant for sustained attacks, hence thier high DPV but low DPS.

What truelly gives the cannons thier bite is the Tactical BOff skills plus Player skills plus consoles.
What truelly gives beams thier bite is the Tactical BOff skills plus Player skills plus consoles.

There is no huge imbalance as the Cruiser, a multirole deep space vessel designed for extended service away from starbases and resource yards is not meant to be a master of any particular role but modifiable to cover a specific role if desired.
You can design a Cruiser to be a DPS boat but not as good as an Escort and only if you give up some inherent tankyness. (though said tanky can be compensated for with good BOff skill usage)
An Escort makes the pinnacle of DPS boat in STO but will not make a good, or even sloppy, healboat as its not adaptible to the role.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 10-02-2012 at 10:44 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 124 Weapon ranges
10-02-2012, 10:53 AM
as from the old but unless things have changed still accurate;
http://theenginescannaetakeit.wordpr...weapon-ranges/

Weapon Ranges?In range??

?Not yet, sir.?

?Come on, come on.?

?She?ll fly apart!?

?Fly her apart then!?

- Captain Hikaru Sulu and Helmsman Lojur
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country


Although all starship weapons in Star Trek: Online have the same maximum range of 10km, it?s been mentioned several times by the developers that different weapons are affected by range at different rates. This article presents the results of in-game testing done to determine what those differences actually are.

(If you?re not interested in tables of numbers, you can skip to the Energy Weapons Summary section for the results of the testing.)

Index
o Beam Weapons
o Cannon Weapons
o Energy Weapons Summary
o Projectile Weapons
o Range and Accuracy
Note: Testing Method
All the test results detailed below were achieved by finding stationary, unshielded targets in missions (defence turrets, mining facilities and the like), firing on them multiple times with a single weapon at a given range, averaging the results, then moving to a new range and repeating the process. A few things to bear in mind:

o The average damage listed is ?per strike? ? for example, a beam array ?strikes? four times each time it?s fired
o All weapons used were common (white) versions, with no special bonuses
o Within each test, weapon power settings and captain skills were kept constant ? the only thing that changed was the range
o Each attack was followed by a pause of a few seconds to make sure that the current weapon power level was at maximum before firing again
o As I don?t have a log analyser or anything similar, the sample sizes were not very large. As such, the average damage has been rounded to the nearest integer, and all results should be treated as approximate

Beam Weapons
Average damage of a phaser beam array at different ranges:

Range (km) Damage
0 144
1 144
2 140
3 135
4 128
5 121
6 115
7 109
8 104
9 98
10 93

Allowing for a margin of error in the data, then, it appears that beam weapons do maximum damage up to 1km, and then start to drop by around 4% damage per km, down to about 65% damage at 10km.

I haven?t yet done extensive testing with dual beams or other damage types, but some quick comparisons of damage at 10km and 1km with a variety suggests that all beam weapons are affected by range in a similar fashion.

Cannon Weapons
Average damage of a dual phaser cannon at different ranges:

Range (km) Damage
0 175
1 175
2 175
3 157
4 146
5 128
6 120
7 102
8 92
9 75
10 66


Once again allowing for a margin of error in the data, it appears that cannon weapons do maximum damage up to 2km then start to drop by around 8% damage per km, down to about 35% damage at 10km.

I haven?t yet done extensive testing with cannons, dual heavy cannons, or other damage types, but some quick comparisons of damage at 1km, 2km and 10km with a variety suggests that all cannon weapons are affected by range in a similar fashion.

Turrets
I haven?t been able to do extensive testing yet, but a comparison of turret damage at 1km, 2km and 10km suggests that they are affected by range in exactly the same way as cannons, which matches with dev statements that turrets are counted as cannons for the purposes of range.

Energy Weapon Summary
Based on the testing done so far:

o The damage done by all energy weapons (beams and cannons, including turrets) is affected by the range to the target
o Beam weapons are less affected by range than cannons (including turrets)
o Beam weapons deal full damage up to 1km, then start to suffer a range penalty of around 4% damage per km, down to a minimum of around 65% damage at 10km
o Cannon weapons (including turrets) deal full damage up to 2km, then start to suffer a range penalty of around 8% per km, down to a minimum of around 35% damage at 10km
o The damage listed on an energy weapon?s tooltip in the weapons tray or on your hotbar is based on minimum range (1km or less for beams, 2km or less for cannons, including turrets)
As I?m a sucker for graphs, here?s a comparison of how beam and cannon weapons appear to perform over range:

The upshot of all this is that those captains utilising a weapons load-out that favours cannons or turrets need to be much more aware of the range to their target than those who favour beams.

This is particularly important when using abilities that boost weapon damage in general (such as Emergency Power to Weapons or Tactical Team) and cannons in particular (such as Cannon: Rapid Fire).

As all these abilities modify your current weapon damage, and that damage is significantly reduced by range, triggering them at long range in a cannon or turret-armed ship can waste a lot of their potential benefit ? in general, it?s better to wait until you?ve closed to within 4-5km or less.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 125
10-02-2012, 01:13 PM
While we're at it, let's compare ship loadouts with basic weapons:

Beam Array Mk XII: 220 DPV, 176 DPS
Cannon Mk XII: 159 DPV, 212 DPS
Dual Heavy Cannon Mk XII: 384 DPV, 256 DPS
Turret Mk XII: 99 DPV, 132 DPS

6x Beam Array + Sensor Analysis: 1373 DPS
4x Cannon+4x Turret: 1376 DPS
8x Beam Array : 1408 DPS
4x DHC+3x Turret: 1420 DPS

.... yeah, HUGE differences, right?
Truth is: before power levels and BOff powers come into play, weapon types are already near perfectly balanced with ship types.

Surprised?

Last edited by flekh; 10-02-2012 at 03:26 PM. Reason: failed at Sci :(
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 126
10-02-2012, 01:23 PM
Wow. Believe it or not, Flekh, I had those numbers prepared but decided not to post.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 127
10-02-2012, 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
While we're at it, let's compare ship loadouts with basic weapons:

Beam Array Mk XII: 220 DPV, 176 DPS
Cannon Mk XII: 159 DPV, 212 DPS
Dual Heavy Cannon Mk XII: 384 DPV, 256 DPS
Turret Mk XII: 99 DPV, 132 DPS

6x Beam Array + Sensor Scan: 1373 DPS
4x Cannon+4x Turret: 1376 DPS
8x Beam Array : 1408 DPS
4x DHC+3x Turret: 1420 DPS

.... yeah, HUGE differences, right?
Truth is: before power levels and BOff powers come into play, weapon types are already near perfectly balanced with ship types.

Surprised?
Seems the issue is not about DPV then but burst damage. Something a Cruiser is not designed to do easily for a reason.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 128
10-02-2012, 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
you completely ignore fireing arcs...again. what should a cruiser with 6 or 7 turnrate do with dual cannons? can't you see where your assumption is so obviously wrong?
The same thing a Dreadnaght does. My dreadnought is more dangerous than my Galaxy-R with exact same turn rate.

Fire arcs don't matter if you put the straight shooting weapon on a small escort ship that can trun in place like a turret. Everybody in PVP knows you can't out manuver escorts because they can do this. Maybe you wouldn't have to arm cannons on cruisers if they made beams do nearly as much damage.

Consuptuption is irrelevant, since the Dual cannons can't fire while I'm broadsiding and my beams will have all the power they need. The rear has no real threat with all beams. Once an escort gets in close to your rear, point blank range, you are not going to shake him. You can turn left or right it would not stop him from being on your rear. If beams had a little more umf in them then players would not just sit in one spot take all 4 beams firing on him.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 445
# 129
10-02-2012, 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
While we're at it, let's compare ship loadouts with basic weapons:

Beam Array Mk XII: 220 DPV, 176 DPS
Cannon Mk XII: 159 DPV, 212 DPS
Dual Heavy Cannon Mk XII: 384 DPV, 256 DPS
Turret Mk XII: 99 DPV, 132 DPS

6x Beam Array + Sensor Scan: 1373 DPS
4x Cannon+4x Turret: 1376 DPS
8x Beam Array : 1408 DPS
4x DHC+3x Turret: 1420 DPS

.... yeah, HUGE differences, right?
Truth is: before power levels and BOff powers come into play, weapon types are already near perfectly balanced with ship types.

Surprised?
Oh numbers, how I love you and your ability to show objective facts.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,766
# 130
10-02-2012, 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
The same thing a Dreadnaght does. My dreadnought is more dangerous than my Galaxy-R with exact same turn rate.

Fire arcs don't matter if you put the straight shooting weapon on a small escort ship that can trun in place like a turret. Everybody in PVP knows you can't out manuver escorts because they can do this. Maybe you wouldn't have to arm cannons on cruisers if they made beams do nearly as much damage.

Consuptuption is irrelevant, since the Dual cannons can't fire while I'm broadsiding and my beams will have all the power they need. The rear has no real threat with all beams. Once an escort gets in close to your rear, point blank range, you are not going to shake him. You can turn left or right it would not stop him from being on your rear. If beams had a little more umf in them then players would not just sit in one spot take all 4 beams firing on him.
WHat makes you think you are supposseed to be able to juke and weave to shake an escort?

Thats likes saying an F22 is being unfair to a 787 airliner in a dog fight and the 787 deserves a buff becuase of its just incapable of competing.

As to being toast if an escort gets on your six, then since you know this come up with a way to compensate for it like many other Crusier players have done.
Use EWP, TB, a Tric Mine, Jam sensors, Scramble Senosrs, AMS, etc etc.
BtW, I have out manuevered Escorts in a BortasQu before when they where on my six, just saying a full reverse is sometimes all you need to catch them offguard.

That Pivot in place Escort has at most a -5% Bonus Defense sitting still, at worst a -15% bonus defense and Beams already do more damage than all cannons except the DHCs and they only exceed by 97 points.

Beams only truelly differ in that they are not a Burst damage weapon unless used with Beam Overload OR A REALLY INVENTIVE USE OF dem AND A WEAPON BATT.

If that Escort is sitting still and you can't kill him or gaurd against the burst attack you know is incomming, you are doing something wrong.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.

Last edited by bitemepwe; 10-02-2012 at 02:00 PM.
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