Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 131
10-02-2012, 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Seems the issue is not about DPV then but burst damage. Something a Cruiser is not designed to do easily for a reason.
Burst damage is ironically excactly where beams are strongest: Beam Overload powered by weapon battery -> Ouch.

Well, that and Tactical Captain abilities, those make a huge difference, closely followed by Science (if good Sub-nuke timing ...). It's just Engineers that lack punch, but they can instead survive such a burst, no reason to complain.

And before we get started on BOff abilities, let's not forget that Cruisers have the one big equalizer here: EPtW. Every other ship type has to choose between being a glass-cannon, or suffering heavy drain - Cruisers can have thier pie and eat it, too.

I'll not deny that Escorts can deal more damage than Cruisers - but the gap beween even the lowliest Cruisers in terms of dps (Star Cruiser, Galaxy-R), or Science Ships for that matter, and the best DPS Escorts isn't more than 50% - and there's quite a lot of Cruisers in the middle of the pack, and Battle Cruisers (including the Galaxy-X, btw(!)) are very near the top.
Oh, and then there's Carriers. Those really are OP. But nobody cares about them.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 132
10-02-2012, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
Burst damage is ironically excactly where beams are strongest: Beam Overload powered by weapon battery -> Ouch.
Ouch indeed. Also a good Weapon batt to push Weapons power past 125 (temporarily) and DEM makes a good punch with beams. Something cannons can not do.

Who ever said Engineers are suppossed to be dishing out massive damage in combat?
(Though nadion inversion, EPS transfer and a good BO3 set-up can hurt from an Engineer. With the right DOffing they can get off more than one BO3 in an action)

Anyways my point is that the escort is designed to fly in close, unleash its buffed attack and hopefully follow through to kill its target while teh Cruiser is meant to be a sustained attack (broadside) wearing its enemy down while surviving the retaliation of its target.
Two completely different combat styles.
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 133
10-02-2012, 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Anyways my point is that the escort is designed to fly in close, unleash its buffed attack and hopefully follow through to kill its target while teh Cruiser is meant to be a sustained attack (broadside) wearing its enemy down while surviving the retaliation of its target.
Two completely different combat styles.
Aye.
And Science is designed to disable ships and/or shields, and then kill the vulnerable floating chunk of metal.

And Carriers are designed to either strip disable/strip and have pets kill the vulnerable floating chunk, or to have the pets do the disableing and do the killing themselves.

Make that: Four completely different combat styles.

I mean, there ARE some reasons I actually like this game.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 134
10-02-2012, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
So, wait - huh? Are you seriously trying to argue that all weapons should do the same exact damage (let's be generous and assume you mean the same effective damage normalized over range, fire arc, and rate of fire), as the first step to balance? Because that... that is fantastic. Yes, let's do that exact thing. That way, escorts, (which are the combat oriented DPS class) get to do LESS damage than cruisers, because they only have 7 weapons instead of 8.

Then, when it becomes evident that somehow the seven weapon escorts are STILL rolling you, let's go ahead and nerf the maneuverability of escorts, because that, too, is an 'imbalance'. Oh, and while we're at it, Sci ships have extra powers other ships don't have. That's not fair, let's go ahead and get rid of those. Oh, and Escorts have more Tac slots than cruisers, so, that's not fair, let's adjust those down. In fact, let's make every ship exactly like every other ship stat-wise. Also, captain powers aren't identical, so, let's get rid of them. That sounds fun.

Of course, when you are STILL getting rolled, then it will be that certain ships 'look faster' and that 'imbalance in looks' is throwing off your game. So, let's make sure that all ships look the same so that you don't have to worry about that. Then, let's make sure there is no difference in latency between different connections, because that also could be a reason why you fail.

Ugh.

Okay, so here it is in simple terms. Yes, cannons do more damage, because they have a narrower arc. Yes, escorts that are well-helmed can do much to minimize that disadvantage. Yes, the net result is that escorts will do more damage than cruisers. Since the CORE GAME DESIGN is that this should be so, it's not exactly a news flash. If you are trying to argue that escorts should not be the DPS class, well, sorry, that ship has sailed. If you are trying to argue that the damage advantage afforded to escorts is somehow insurmountable, you are flat wrong. If you are trying to say that balance means all things must be exactly equal in all ways, then you have no conception of balancing through competing strengths and weaknesses, and probably have a difficult time negotiating yourself through a game of 'rock paper scissors'.
Orientation of ships leaning Tac, ENG, Sci are based on the the BOFF layout, not weapons. The are no special weapons that are made to cater to a specific class of ship that are not console driven. The fact that most ship types on the KDF, except for carriers, can arm DHC's. Many of their BOFF layouts are universal so you can make your ship cater to Sci, ENG, or Tac.

Its the BOFF layout that makes an escort Tac heavy. There is no other ship type that get to use the other combat manuvers but the escort. The cruisers are engineer heavy due to is Commander lvl Eng BOFFs, so on. I disagree with this type catagorizing because it dosen't fit canon, ship catagory role should be based on her captain. There were not many science dedicated ship classes in Star Trek, the Oberth and Olympic were the only ones. When you look at TNG, many multiprpose vessels were used for science missions like the Miranda Class, and sometimes the Nebula Class. The Intrepid, Nebula, and Rhode Island, Luna classes were cruisers. Nebulas were mulitpurpose ships used as assault ships, science ships, transports and support ships. The only reason people think the USS Voyager was a science ship because Captain Janeway had a science background. Lunar Class is definately not a science ship because its considered an explorer ship. The USS Titan had all the same roles as all the old Enterprises had in the past, exlporing, first contact, etc. Escorts in Star Trek are not armed with cannons except for the Defiant Class, and there were not many of those. Thats only a concept started by this game. If beams were on the same level as cannons, them you wouldn't see them all on escorts, and there wouldn't be a problem for other ships doing damage. It would be up to the captain's skill tree to what kind of damage his ship will deal.

There is nowhere in Star Trek material saying that cannons did more damage than beam arrays beams had more range. Thats totally made up in this game.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 135
10-02-2012, 01:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
While we're at it, let's compare ship loadouts with basic weapons:

Beam Array Mk XII: 220 DPV, 176 DPS
Cannon Mk XII: 159 DPV, 212 DPS
Dual Heavy Cannon Mk XII: 384 DPV, 256 DPS
Turret Mk XII: 99 DPV, 132 DPS

6x Beam Array + Sensor Scan: 1373 DPS
4x Cannon+4x Turret: 1376 DPS
8x Beam Array : 1408 DPS
4x DHC+3x Turret: 1420 DPS
Thanks for these however I feel it a little... convenient... that for your 6 beam test you weakened your enemies defence (I believe by 50%) "6x Beam Array + Sensor Scan: 1373 DPS"

Just sayin
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 136
10-02-2012, 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Thanks for these however I feel it a little... convenient... that for your 6 beam test you weakened your enemies defence (I believe by 50%) "6x Beam Array + Sensor Scan: 1373 DPS"

Just sayin
Sensor Scan is an ability carried by all Science Ships. It's a stacking damage debuff that makes up for the Sci's lack of weapon slots.
And it's automatically applied to whatever they're shooting at, and only applies to them.
It's up to 30% btw, and at that 30% you get 75% x 130% = 97.5% the dps of 8 weapons, using only 6.
The line is a quip at the "Sci sucks" whiners, who are just as annoying as the "Cruisers suck" whiners, or the "Escort or go home" fanboys - all of them are equally bad, and equally lack understanding of this game.
Edit: Nevermind ... "Sensor Analysis" is what it should have been ...

This game's mechanics are actually quite good. What you could complain about is the quite heavy P2W, the lack of content, the lack of quality content, the lack of challenging content, the lack of reason to create fleets for more than social reasons or starbases, the state of the community, customer service, developer relations, .... ummm, need I go on?
All of these get ignored. Instead people who can't accept that they need to improve their gameplay come and whine about perceived injustices and "broken" combat.

... bah, now you triggered my rant-mode.

Last edited by flekh; 10-02-2012 at 02:27 PM. Reason: ...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,967
# 137
10-02-2012, 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Thanks for these however I feel it a little... convenient... that for your 6 beam test you weakened your enemies defence (I believe by 50%) "6x Beam Array + Sensor Scan: 1373 DPS"

Just sayin
i think he means actually sensor analasys. And as i stated before (or in another thread) the difference between escort def and cruiser def is actually less than 20% at same speed setting (full) and same power level. (when i tested it, it was 16% more for the escort)

but that aside, in his test he only compared raw numbers without any buffs or energy levels, and also without any defense consideration.


Quote:
Consuptuption is irrelevant, since the Dual cannons can't fire while I'm broadsiding and my beams will have all the power they need. The rear has no real threat with all beams. Once an escort gets in close to your rear, point blank range, you are not going to shake him. You can turn left or right it would not stop him from being on your rear. If beams had a little more umf in them then players would not just sit in one spot take all 4 beams firing on him.
that cruiser setup you described here...is actually the reason i think you have no idea of how to setup a cruiser thats worth something.
DC mixed with broadsiding beams, srsly? thats the reason why you deal no damage.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 138
10-02-2012, 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
WHat makes you think you are supposseed to be able to juke and weave to shake an escort?

Thats likes saying an F22 is being unfair to a 787 airliner in a dog fight and the 787 deserves a buff becuase of its just incapable of competing.

As to being toast if an escort gets on your six, then since you know this come up with a way to compensate for it like many other Crusier players have done.
Use EWP, TB, a Tric Mine, Jam sensors, Scramble Senosrs, AMS, etc etc.
BtW, I have out manuevered Escorts in a BortasQu before when they where on my six, just saying a full reverse is sometimes all you need to catch them offguard.

That Pivot in place Escort has at most a -5% Bonus Defense sitting still, at worst a -15% bonus defense and Beams already do more damage than all cannons except the DHCs and they only exceed by 97 points.

Beams only truelly differ in that they are not a Burst damage weapon unless used with Beam Overload OR A REALLY INVENTIVE USE OF dem AND A WEAPON BATT.

If that Escort is sitting still and you can't kill him or gaurd against the burst attack you know is incomming, you are doing something wrong.
You are already stating the obvious. I didn't ask for a buff. I want the beams to be more powerful so I can keep people off my back. Your comparison of the 787 with the F22 is irrelevant because the 787 has has no weapons and is made out of just aluminum, where as military planes are composed of aluminum and kevlar composite armor to withstand flak blast. Comparing the World War II air fortresses to German fighters is more in line with the discussion. Bombers in those days were armed to the teeth with many machine gun turrets and it would take more than one fighter plane to take it down. While one fighter would distract the turret gunners the other fighter or fighters would come in blasting on the otherside.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 139
10-02-2012, 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
i think he means actually sensor analasys. And as i stated before (or in another thread) the difference between escort def and cruiser def is actually less than 20% at same speed setting (full) and same power level. (when i tested it, it was 16% more for the escort)

but that aside, in his test he only compared raw numbers without any buffs or energy levels, and also without any defense consideration.




that cruiser setup you described here...is actually the reason i think you have no idea of how to setup a cruiser thats worth something.
DC mixed with broadsiding beams, srsly? thats the reason why you deal no damage.
You don't understand how it works because don't fly one. Why should I explain to you further if you not going to fly a dreadnought?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 140
10-02-2012, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
While we're at it, let's compare ship loadouts with basic weapons:

Beam Array Mk XII: 220 DPV, 176 DPS
Cannon Mk XII: 159 DPV, 212 DPS
Dual Heavy Cannon Mk XII: 384 DPV, 256 DPS
Turret Mk XII: 99 DPV, 132 DPS

6x Beam Array + Sensor Analysis: 1373 DPS
4x Cannon+4x Turret: 1376 DPS
8x Beam Array : 1408 DPS
4x DHC+3x Turret: 1420 DPS

.... yeah, HUGE differences, right?
Truth is: before power levels and BOff powers come into play, weapon types are already near perfectly balanced with ship types.

Surprised?
This comparision is ridiculous, because it don't count in energy drain as well as skills as cannon rapid fire 3, which give cannons a huge damage boost, compared to burst only beam overload, which also drains alot of energy.

Starship Weapon Calculator gives some clue about, how DHCs realy outperform beam arrays.

Btw. a good escort pilot can easily outmanouver a 8 beam setup. If he cannot get advance against turnrate 5-8 cruiser, he should delete STO and start playing maybe minesweeper.

Thats a comment from one who started playing engineer cruiser and now plays tac escort ... for some reason my performance increased by about 500% ...

Last edited by xiphenon; 10-02-2012 at 03:03 PM.
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