Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 752
# 41
09-30-2012, 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the ships were built at the same time, the akira really is 23 times larger then the defiant, has a phaser array longer then the sovereign's longest, and it has between 15 and 21 torpedo launchers viable on the canon filming model. these are facts, they cannot be denied.


...and you think theirs any doubt the akira is the superior ship? your fan boy is showing. the only thing the defiant is best at is having the most tactical ability per unit of size. but its a very small ship, it doesn't have many units of size.




all those scenes from the dominan war prove that any ship that is not the hero ship of the show is killed in 1 hit, even twice as huge as everything else D'deridex warbirds. theres no way to gauge much from those fights other then ships explode when they get hit, except the defiant.
whose fanboi is showing? 23 time the size of Defiant would make an akira larger than a galaxy nowhere on film does an akira appear to be 23 times the size of a defiant. you say those are torpedo ports. maybe they are ports for launching probes. they are never used on film so any theory on what the are for is speculation, NOT CANON. you cry "it's not canon" when ever someone says something about anything that denigrates your lust for the akira. i get it. you like that ship. but everything you call "fact" has no basis in canon and that is all that matters in the discussion. personally I think the tier 4 cruiser should be the ambassador. i really like the ship, but I don't go around saying how much better it is over a galaxy class
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 180
# 42
09-30-2012, 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the ships were built at the same time, the akira really is 23 times larger then the defiant, has a phaser array longer then the sovereign's longest, and it has between 15 and 21 torpedo launchers viable on the canon filming model. these are facts, they cannot be denied.


...and you think theirs any doubt the akira is the superior ship? your fan boy is showing. the only thing the defiant is best at is having the most tactical ability per unit of size. but its a very small ship, it doesn't have many units of size.




all those scenes from the dominan war prove that any ship that is not the hero ship of the show is killed in 1 hit, even twice as huge as everything else D'deridex warbirds. theres no way to gauge much from those fights other then ships explode when they get hit, except the defiant.
Wow! Really? Ok, I think that I see the gist of your arguments now:

1) "Canon" only matters when YOU say that it matters

2) "Non-Canon" only matters when YOU say that it matters.

3) "Speculation" only matters when YOU say that it matters.

4) "Apples and Oranges" only matters when YOU say that it matters.

5) "Logic" only matters when YOU say that it matters.

6) "STO Ships and Stats" only matters when YOU say that it matters.

7) "Everything" only matters when YOU say that it matters.


Everyone, this debate is going absolutely nowhere. This guy's logic is all over the map. He appears to be so fixated on the Akira he seems to be adopting a "Are you going to believe me or your lyin' eyes approach".

It would at least be more honest if he just came out and said that no matter what anyone says, he will NEVER consider their opinon. But instead, he presents arguments that completely lack any consistency or coherence.

Thankfully, the people in charge of STO have wisely choosen to disregard such nonsense and present the ship closer to what was seen on screen, or at least closer that this guy would have had them do.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,547
# 43
09-30-2012, 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteguy904 View Post
whose fanboi is showing? 23 time the size of Defiant would make an akira larger than a galaxy nowhere on film does an akira appear to be 23 times the size of a defiant. you say those are torpedo ports. maybe they are ports for launching probes. they are never used on film so any theory on what the are for is speculation, NOT CANON. you cry "it's not canon" when ever someone says something about anything that denigrates your lust for the akira. i get it. you like that ship. but everything you call "fact" has no basis in canon and that is all that matters in the discussion. personally I think the tier 4 cruiser should be the ambassador. i really like the ship, but I don't go around saying how much better it is over a galaxy class
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html

Akira volume- 1,407,821m?
Defiant volume- 61,724m?

= 22.8 times larger

galaxy volume- 5,820,983m?

=94.3 times larger

oh yes, theres that big of a difference.


denying that the akira has that many torpedo launchers is laughable. launchers that were seen firing torpedoes in canon are scattered all over the ship, there are 15 easily identifiable. unless even though they look exactly the same, they have some different purpose. probe launchers? thats the most pathetic excuse ive heard a defiant fan boy come up with yet.

and i have 0 lust for the akira over the defiant. im being objective here with the cold hard numbers, your off on some white knight defense of your favorite ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by polaronbeam1 View Post
Wow! Really? Ok, I think that I see the gist of your arguments now:

1) "Canon" only matters when YOU say that it matters

2) "Non-Canon" only matters when YOU say that it matters.

3) "Speculation" only matters when YOU say that it matters.

4) "Apples and Oranges" only matters when YOU say that it matters.

5) "Logic" only matters when YOU say that it matters.

6) "STO Ships and Stats" only matters when YOU say that it matters.

7) "Everything" only matters when YOU say that it matters.


Everyone, this debate is going absolutely nowhere. This guy's logic is all over the map. He appears to be so fixated on the Akira he seems to be adopting a "Are you going to believe me or your lyin' eyes approach".

It would at least be more honest if he just came out and said that no matter what anyone says, he will NEVER consider their opinon. But instead, he presents arguments that completely lack any consistency or coherence.

Thankfully, the people in charge of STO have wisely choosen to disregard such nonsense and present the ship closer to what was seen on screen, or at least closer that this guy would have had them do.
get a load of this guy. in those ds9 battles every type of ship on the screen ether flew from 1 side to the other, of blew up when hit once. except the defiant, if it was lost with all hands the show would end right there. how useful is this to gauge anything?

you dont think there is a difference between a general purpose exploration cruiser and a small ship with nothing but tactical capacity built into it, so much so that you could refer to one as an apple and the other an orange when comparing them?

i have posted numbers time and time again in arguments like this, all i get in return is a broad brush trying to paint everything as opinion. well guess what, there is next to no solid information on any of this stuff, and most of it contradicts itself. i look to the published numbers to try to gauge were things would stand in a vacuum, and judge them accordingly. the only thing most people are capable of believing is that the ship that gets the most screen time, that has become their favorite, is the best and are willing to entertain no examination calling that into question.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 752
# 44
09-30-2012, 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html

Akira volume- 1,407,821m?
Defiant volume- 61,724m?

= 22.8 times larger

galaxy volume- 5,820,983m?

=94.3 times larger

oh yes, theres that big of a difference.


denying that the akira has that many torpedo launchers is laughable. launchers that were seen firing torpedoes in canon are scattered all over the ship, there are 15 easily identifiable. unless even though they look exactly the same, they have some different purpose. probe launchers? thats the most pathetic excuse ive heard a defiant fan boy come up with yet.

and i have 0 lust for the akira over the defiant. im being objective here with the cold hard numbers, your off on some white knight defense of your favorite ship.



get a load of this guy. in those ds9 battles every type of ship on the screen ether flew from 1 side to the other, of blew up when hit once. except the defiant, if it was lost with all hands the show would end right there. how useful is this to gauge anything?

you dont think there is a difference between a general purpose exploration cruiser and a small ship with nothing but tactical capacity built into it, so much so that you could refer to one as an apple and the other an orange when comparing them?

i have posted numbers time and time again in arguments like this, all i get in return is a broad brush trying to paint everything as opinion. well guess what, there is next to no solid information on any of this stuff, and most of it contradicts itself. i look to the published numbers to try to gauge were things would stand in a vacuum, and judge them accordingly. the only thing most people are capable of believing is that the ship that gets the most screen time, that has become their favorite, is the best and are willing to entertain no examination calling that into question.
so if I make a website that says the Defiant is 4x larger than the akira it makes it "hard cold facts?" really, a star wars vs star trek website? THAT's your source?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 180
# 45
09-30-2012, 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteguy904 View Post
so if I make a website that says the Defiant is 4x larger than the akira it makes it "hard cold facts?" really, a star wars vs star trek website? THAT's your source?
Trying to appeal to this guy's sense of logic is a complete waste of time. He appears to have spent hours, if not days, trying to search for the ONE website that somewhat shares his ideas, although even they didn't give support to his assertions of the Akira's battle prowess.

As I stated before and as he has just confirmed, non-canon sources are only relevant when HE says that they are relevant. So, no matter what Defiant related or Star Trek related sites that you provide, he will clearly dismiss them out of hand.

You have seen him dismiss things appearing onscreen that don't conform to his beliefs. His recent tact, talking about the "hero ships" was quite telling. By his logic, everything that we have seen regarding the Defiant should be dismissed because it it a "hero ship". But wouldn't that same logic apply to TOS and TNG as well? So according to him, being a "hero ship" invalidates everything that ship has done.

When you are dealing with these types of arguments, you will never be able to get any consistency.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,547
# 46
10-01-2012, 01:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteguy904 View Post
so if I make a website that says the Defiant is 4x larger than the akira it makes it "hard cold facts?" really, a star wars vs star trek website? THAT's your source?
a high quality mesh for every ship on the list was loaded into a 3d model program, scaled 1:1, and the volumes were determined by raytraceing or volume calculating plugins.

doubling a cube's dimensions increases its volume eight-fold, theres no reason not to believe those numbers are accurate. though im quite sure what ever i post you will simply dismiss no mater what, wile posting nothing to actually counter it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by polaronbeam1 View Post
Trying to appeal to this guy's sense of logic is a complete waste of time. He appears to have spent hours, if not days, trying to search for the ONE website that somewhat shares his ideas, although even they didn't give support to his assertions of the Akira's battle prowess.

As I stated before and as he has just confirmed, non-canon sources are only relevant when HE says that they are relevant. So, no matter what Defiant related or Star Trek related sites that you provide, he will clearly dismiss them out of hand.

You have seen him dismiss things appearing onscreen that don't conform to his beliefs. His recent tact, talking about the "hero ships" was quite telling. By his logic, everything that we have seen regarding the Defiant should be dismissed because it it a "hero ship". But wouldn't that same logic apply to TOS and TNG as well? So according to him, being a "hero ship" invalidates everything that ship has done.

When you are dealing with these types of arguments, you will never be able to get any consistency.
took me about a minute to go through my bookmarks, and divide one volume by the other. the only thing that takes days is arguing with people like you.

what impressive feats has the defiant performed? killing bug ships and bops? well, they were both considerably smaller ships, and always easily popable.

it killed a breen ship or 2 after long cannon bursts or several quantum torps, disabled some cardi ships, shot up the mirror negvar for several minutes wile it was too close for the neg'var to even hit it, got chased around by a vorcha, was literally harmless to a dominion battleship, and could only fight an old excelsior class to a draw.

its pretty clear the defiant is at least a match for most ships about 15 times its size in a strait fight, but there are a lot of ships larger then that. without all this on screen data, who would rate such a small ship so highly? it shows time and time again that it is that powerful though.

compared to that you have only seen an akira shoot torpedoes at a borg ship, get blown up by a borg ship, get escorted by 2 defiants, as if it were the superior ship of the 3, and get blowup gloriously in fleet battles during the dominion war.

thats not a lot to go on. what can looking at the cgi model tell us? well, the very long phaser array, longer then the sovereigns longest even. 15 torpedo launchers all ether seen fireing or a launcher that was identical was seen fireing

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...eLocations.jpg

the dimensions of the ship based on common components with the sovereign class here

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...akira-size.htm

the volume of the ship with the same 440m length the previous link concluded was its actual length

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html

so we have a pretty clear view of its stats, and a lack of any focused air time of it doing anything but exploding. you would have us believe that the defiant, a ship the fraction of the size and the same age, could beat this new, large, armed to the teeth heavy cruiser? would you have us beleave this clearly heavily tactically focused brand new heavy cruiser is vastly tactically underpowered, and that even an old excelsior could probably beat it?

well guys, thats your logic.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,449
# 47
10-02-2012, 04:28 PM
It is is probable that the Akria was commanded by Cdrs in ST First Contact.it is also subject of being a light criuser.
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