Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 41
10-02-2012, 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
First off a couple things, carriers are not science ships.

Secondly, you're telling me that you want a single power to completely nullify a "buffed out" tactical ship doing its best to not be held still? How's that fair?

And hmm a power that's an anti debuff power you want? Gee.... I could have sworn that science captains have the only buff remover in the game? (Ann doffs not counted but if they were then well there's even more ways to remove them buffs)

And you call yourself a science captain? Please don't insult us actual science captains. Thanks.

-Mai Kai the Science Guy-
No I want my powers to be effective even against a buffed target. Sounds fair, eh? I want my powers to do something, because his powers are doing something while mine are totally nullified without any other "annoying" consequence for my target but a dps buff (APO), a speed/turnrate buff (evasive), a dmg resistance buff (polarize), etc. He's buffed like mad and can ignore most of my debuffs. I call this a good deal but only for one side obviously, because his powers are doing something while mine have no effect.

I think you didn't get what I said, I was just saying that the problem with scis powers is that we face permanently immune targets. There are dozens of counters to science powers, I don't even want to make a list, it would be unending. So when you want to do *something* against one target you have to use a tremendous amount of abilities, tractor beam, SNB, subsystem targeting, a power drain if you're still using one, then a gravity well when his second wave of buffs are over, and of course one of those pay to win consoles if you want to hold if for more than one or two seconds before the third wave of buffs (here you have to use the tholian web or antimatter spread and so on).

That's why runabouts are almost necessary, they allow you to make something sci -immobilizing your target- during the very limited time it's not permabuffed. Yes it's annoying but it's almlost the only way to kill a good escort, ie taking it at 0 speed to remove all his defense bonus, especially with pay to win ships such as the bug.

Last edited by diogene0; 10-02-2012 at 04:09 PM.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 425
# 42
10-02-2012, 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beary666sto View Post
I'm sorry, but the reason Science got nerfed into the ground was not because of PvPers, it was because of PvE'ers Kirking in PvP and then whining when they got curbstomped by a couple of science ships working together.
No, i'm sorry, but you wrong, it has nothing to do with pve players going into pvp and getting stomped and then coming to the boards to complain.

Its about other pvp players getting stomped by something that was badly thought out in the first place....buffed and then nerfed and buffed again...etc etc etc

And you missed my point...its impossible to balance powers for pvp and pve..they are TWO different animals....its why most mmo's have separate servers for each type of game play...
"If everyone used Macs, we'd be working on how to get to Alpha Centauri rather than how to get to Mars."
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 876
# 43
10-02-2012, 04:31 PM
You're both wrong, though beary less wrong. Science powers were "nerfed" into oblivion because Cryptic royally messed up when they implemented science resists. It was the PvPers, not the PvErs that raged against the science resists, fist when they were announced, then when they went on tribble, and then when they went to live despite our warnings.

Other powers, like gravity well and tyken's, we're doubly hit by the new skill tree.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 566
# 44
10-02-2012, 05:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
No I want my powers to be effective even against a buffed target. Sounds fair, eh? I want my powers to do something, because his powers are doing something while mine are totally nullified without any other "annoying" consequence for my target but a dps buff (APO), a speed/turnrate buff (evasive), a dmg resistance buff (polarize), etc. He's buffed like mad and can ignore most of my debuffs. I call this a good deal but only for one side obviously, because his powers are doing something while mine have no effect.

I think you didn't get what I said, I was just saying that the problem with scis powers is that we face permanently immune targets. There are dozens of counters to science powers, I don't even want to make a list, it would be unending. So when you want to do *something* against one target you have to use a tremendous amount of abilities, tractor beam, SNB, subsystem targeting, a power drain if you're still using one, then a gravity well when his second wave of buffs are over, and of course one of those pay to win consoles if you want to hold if for more than one or two seconds before the third wave of buffs (here you have to use the tholian web or antimatter spread and so on).

That's why runabouts are almost necessary, they allow you to make something sci -immobilizing your target- during the very limited time it's not permabuffed. Yes it's annoying but it's almlost the only way to kill a good escort, ie taking it at 0 speed to remove all his defense bonus, especially with pay to win ships such as the bug.
I see your point, but IMO you're wrong, and allow me to say why I think you're wrong. As a sci you have the subnuc, you have the tractor beam (you use those already from what I remember). When apo ends, tractor beam. When escort uses pol hull, subnuc. You can also put some tbr, add a vm, a tr (vm is horrible for escort since most don't have engi teams). I think you expect to wipe out an escort in few seconds. That isn't the point of a sci ship.

I use a recluse on my engi, in pvp, I only use the pets when I'm either in Kerrat with 5 on me, either when I see other pet spam that I can't deal on my own with. You really don't need all that junk to win, again, pets are part of the game and I'm not saying or implying not to use them, but you really can do great without them, even if its a little more work.
Hear! Sons of Kahless
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...

Last edited by trueprom3theus; 10-02-2012 at 05:07 PM.
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,138
# 45
10-02-2012, 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
also, when its a % of the power drained, how excatly is this done? is it a constantly refreshing number or just the inital power level when the drain is started? how do using extra power abilities effect it?
Every tick, it recalculates at the moment the drain is applied. This is how the "shallow bell curve" I originally mentioned comes to pass. Low % of a high value at first, then mid-mid, then high-low. And the lower your current power level, the less it can drain.

And using an "Emergency Power to X" ability will both hurt and help if you're under attack by Siphon Drones. It will increase your power, but the Drones' next attack tick will calculate its drain % off of your current (temporarily increased) power level.
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Cryptic - Systems Design
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Kurland here...
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 876
# 46
10-02-2012, 06:01 PM
The only fear I have is that changing the drones might take them from "so broken it's basically cheating" to "just really, really OP," and that a lot of people who previously did not use siphon drones out of a sense of honor will begin to use them en masse. This could hurt FvK participation even more. Bort, the proposed changes certainly sound like a good starting place, but if the drones are still unbalanced after the change are you able to quickly apply further adjustments based on testing and feedback? Whether they need to be reduced further, or even buffed back up a bit?
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Posts: 797
# 47
10-02-2012, 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
No I want my powers to be effective even against a buffed target. Sounds fair, eh? I want my powers to do something, because his powers are doing something while mine are totally nullified without any other "annoying" consequence for my target but a dps buff (APO), a speed/turnrate buff (evasive), a dmg resistance buff (polarize), etc. He's buffed like mad and can ignore most of my debuffs. I call this a good deal but only for one side obviously, because his powers are doing something while mine have no effect.

I think you didn't get what I said, I was just saying that the problem with scis powers is that we face permanently immune targets. There are dozens of counters to science powers, I don't even want to make a list, it would be unending. So when you want to do *something* against one target you have to use a tremendous amount of abilities, tractor beam, SNB, subsystem targeting, a power drain if you're still using one, then a gravity well when his second wave of buffs are over, and of course one of those pay to win consoles if you want to hold if for more than one or two seconds before the third wave of buffs (here you have to use the tholian web or antimatter spread and so on).

That's why runabouts are almost necessary, they allow you to make something sci -immobilizing your target- during the very limited time it's not permabuffed. Yes it's annoying but it's almlost the only way to kill a good escort, ie taking it at 0 speed to remove all his defense bonus, especially with pay to win ships such as the bug.
then they will complain that dispite all their buffs to prevent them from being held they still get held which will then cause a look to be taken at further buff their resists to the tractor beam etc etc, its the "we have bigger nuclear weapons then you do!" mentalitiy. this is not a good way to go.

if a target is giving you such a hard time with being held down, sub nuc him then kill him. if thats too much trouble, find a target thats squishier.

adapt, thats what we're always told to do. why not give it a shot? tractor beam not working for ya in holding them still? try grav well + shockwave, or beam target engines+tykens rift etc etc.

tractor beams shouldnt be as powerful as they are even now because theyre such a low level skill to take, theres no way a ensign skill should comletely nullify a ltcmdr or cmdr (attack pattern omega, im looking at you here) and polarize hull doesnt "completely" nullify it it does resist it.

theres only 2 powers to "counter" tractor beams anyways.

learn, play, adapt. if your swarm of tractor beams isnt enough for you then try the delta flyer with its useless shield drains, or the fighter for the lots of extra (-chuckles-) dps they bring.
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Posts: 797
# 48
10-02-2012, 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
Every tick, it recalculates at the moment the drain is applied. This is how the "shallow bell curve" I originally mentioned comes to pass. Low % of a high value at first, then mid-mid, then high-low. And the lower your current power level, the less it can drain.

And using an "Emergency Power to X" ability will both hurt and help if you're under attack by Siphon Drones. It will increase your power, but the Drones' next attack tick will calculate its drain % off of your current (temporarily increased) power level.
is there going to be at least a "hidden" hard cap that the siphion drones cant drain past? to prevent someone from chaning them on someone and just draining him dry?

maybe say, not more then 175 total power can ever be drained by power siphion drones?
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 49
10-02-2012, 08:23 PM
ROFL LMFAO

Sorry Jman couldn't resist. You said Carrier, Pet Dps with a straight face.

Pets Suck as anything but screen clutter. Aside from Danubes perma chronitoning and tractoring your face off, and siphon drones perma draining you to death.

The problem is, Power insulators doesn't work with "diminished ability" it works 0. Nada Zippo, Zilch, Nein.

Pets should Never be more effective at a given role than an actual Boff Skill, which is what we have here with the Drones, vs say Esiphon, or TR3. (to say nothing of TR2)

I think the Drones, collectively should equal an Energy Siphon, and be clearable as such. Not as some god awful perma suck you down and kill you /faceroll monstrosity that they are now.
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# 50
10-03-2012, 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostyandfrosty View Post
couldn't resist
No pun intended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
No I want my powers to be effective even against a buffed target. Sounds fair, eh? I want my powers to do something, because his powers are doing something while mine are totally nullified without any other "annoying" consequence for my target but a dps buff (APO), a speed/turnrate buff (evasive), a dmg resistance buff (polarize), etc. He's buffed like mad and can ignore most of my debuffs. I call this a good deal but only for one side obviously, because his powers are doing something while mine have no effect.
Ignoring how off topic this is, no, it's not fair that you want your movement debuffs to work when APO and PH are up. It's also not fair to say that your all of your powers don't do something because some of them are countered. A doff'd VM will give an escort fits. TBR turns APO into a liability because they will stay in range and eat every pulse for damage directly to the hull.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
I think you didn't get what I said, I was just saying that the problem with scis powers is that we face permanently immune targets. There are dozens of counters to science powers, I don't even want to make a list, it would be unending.
Right, and an escort can't load them all. PH means probably 1 more slot for sci. No HE means they're not putting out plasma fires. No Sci Team means sub-nuc hurts longer and VM comes back. Tac Team means no Eng team for disables, so they have to go to sub-system specific batteries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
So when you want to do *something* against one target you have to use a tremendous amount of abilities, tractor beam, SNB, subsystem targeting, a power drain if you're still using one, then a gravity well when his second wave of buffs are over, and of course one of those pay to win consoles if you want to hold if for more than one or two seconds before the third wave of buffs (here you have to use the tholian web or antimatter spread and so on).
Here, we agree. But the devil is in the details. You do need to use a tremendous number of abilities to pop a talented escort with a good buff rotation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogene0 View Post
That's why runabouts are almost necessary, they allow you to make something sci -immobilizing your target- during the very limited time it's not permabuffed. Yes it's annoying but it's almlost the only way to kill a good escort, ie taking it at 0 speed to remove all his defense bonus, especially with pay to win ships such as the bug.
Oh, so close! Yet so wrong. You're ignoring the implications (not to mention the logic) of "the very limited time it's not permabuffed." You're seeing the danubes nab people in the holes in their rotation because they are applying almost continual tractor beams. You're coming to the false conclusion that the runabouts are "almost necessary." Those holes in their rotation exist, and you can apply your own tractor beam if you are watching their buff bar carefully. Further, you can widen those holes by forcing them to choose conflicting immunities. Stack some plasma fires so they have to use HE, and there will be no PH to fill the downtime between APO.

A clean buff rotation is a skill, and can only really be countered by skill (SNB aside). This is, I think, as it should be. You're seeing the danube 100% uptime TB snagging them occasionally but failing to build on it. You can't go straight to denying them their defense score without first denying them their immunities, position before submission as they say. Those danubes are a crutch, denying you the ability to become a more skilled player.

To bring this back on topic at least a little, I think Siphons and danubes end up in the same conversation because they remove or reduce the effects of skill, build, and chance. I know when APO is going to run out, and there's a little suspense to see if anybody on the other team notices. Am I going to spill my tea like Sulu in his Excelsior or am I going to get away with being vulnerable? If somebody is on their toes and has a TB off cooldown then I'm going to pay for it. With danubes in the fight I have a TB on me continually so things become inevitable, just like the current Drones.
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