Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,284
# 371
10-04-2012, 06:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post

If they had eve the slightest idea about the Galaxy Class they would have given it a Lt. universal instead of its Lt Science AND gave it two Science consoles instead of three and added one universal console.
That effectively reads "Please take away it's only science boff! give me absolutely no defence against science ships!"

That's a GREAT idea, lets open a HUGE hole in your ships defences and it's in game capabilities. Please stop trying to shoot your own ship down in flames and try focusing your existing firepower see: this

The galaxy is not an engineers cruiser though, in game they made it a tacticals cruiser hence the lacking tac boff skills but abundance of engi skills, it allow a tac to do in a cruiser what we engineers want to do, dish out the damage AND sponge damage like Q knows what
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,839
# 372
10-04-2012, 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
That effectively reads "Please take away it's only science boff! give me absolutely no defence against science ships!"

That's a GREAT idea, lets open a HUGE hole in your ships defences and it's in game capabilities. Please stop trying to shoot your own ship down in flames and try focusing your existing firepower see: this

The galaxy is not an engineers cruiser though, in game they made it a tacticals cruiser hence the lacking tac boff skills but abundance of engi skills, it allow a tac to do in a cruiser what we engineers want to do, dish out the damage AND sponge damage like Q knows what
Universal means you can still use a Science BOFF on that station, but it would give the ship a bit of flexibility to adapt to more situations.
I am sorry, if you don't understand that.

Btw. i am well aware how to fly my ship, thank you.

Thank you for reading.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,284
# 373
10-04-2012, 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
Universal means you can still use a Science BOFF on that station, but it would give the ship a bit of flexibility to adapt to more situations.
I am sorry, if you don't understand that.
No, no, I understand this perfectly the thing is that we ALL KNOW that it's only going to get used for a tactical BOFF so your comment about uni BOFF was completely unnecessary. If you want to have a uni station why not change the ensign to uni that gives you all the flexibility you would have had using your suggestion and at a lower cost i.e. you keep the built in science and most of the useful engineering and still get that ensign to play with.

Also as a result of running 6 beam arrays on the ship you are losing a lot of it's damage potential. As we all know from the show the ships firepower is focussed forward and if you get out of the firing range of the forward beam you have a chance at bringing the thing down, I think the devs did a good job of portraying this design flaw and there are things you can do to maximise your all round damage potential; as someone said before me use a DBB.

A DBB plus EPtW plus EPS Power transfer plus Nadion inversion plus AP:B (in place already) plus Weapons battery plus TT plus BO = A **** Ton of damage (even more if it crits)

Now imagine that from an escorts point of view, a Galaxy class "weak brick" just tore lots of holes in your hull, admittedly you've got 3 minutes to prepare for the next one, and on top of this that ship is still dishing it out, so you have to change tactics and defend and rebuild. now if you take your escort in behind this ship and it starts firing torps at you two a time WITH decent broadside damage are you gonna keep at it? (I wouldn't. I'd go pick on some helpless tank that is incapable of putting up a fight).

So what those two paragraphs says is that actually the galaxy is far from defenceless and even less so with a tac at the helm, which happens to be what it was designed for. Give it a go, I used to run a similar Excelsior to good effect
Ensign
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 9
# 374
10-04-2012, 01:36 PM
yea i have noticed that alot of TNG ships including the dreadnought are loseing power
Ensign
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 19
# 375
10-04-2012, 01:42 PM
I think all cruisers that have a third engineering ensign slot shout instead get a universal ensign slot because who the heck needs three engineering ensigns and for what purpose? I leave mine blank.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,180
# 376
10-04-2012, 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roboydo View Post
Actually I would argue against that. Albeit I am not sure what instances you are talking about the two most used instances for a Galaxy's "weakness" are typically the Odyssey's destruction and Generations. In both examples they actually show heavily just how much fortitude the Galaxy has in her frame and design.
i used to remember a few, the only one that comes to mind right now is rascals. the ferengi beat and took over the enterprise with 2 salvaged bops and like 10 ferengi. against a ship with 1000 people and the ability to destroy both ships in a torpedo spread or a single phaser blast each. that single shot the D fired at the bop in generations should have ended the fight, antimaterial round through a watermelon like.

the bridge banter on the odyssey stated that there weapons were having no effect against the jem hadar shields, which is frankly impossible, you cant dissipate that much energy regardless of what setting your shields have. they also mentioned that the odyssey's shields were completely infective against the polaron based weapons, and that they tried every frequency.

they didn't open fire until the bugs were literally underneath the saucer. if the odyssey had fired on them like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=H_XbWq49vUM there would not have been a battle, as long as their weapons were allowed to deal damage by the writers. at the very least they could have sent 9 bugs against the ship so it wasn't such an embarrassing loss. just an absurd battle

Quote:
Originally Posted by roboydo View Post
Can't agree with you enough. For brevity sake, ships todays are a lot of times 30+ years old. They were designed to absorb new technology as it was made. Hell, the battleships of yesteryear were refitted during the Gulf war and they weren't designed to absorb new tech but they did. I am pretty sure designers and engineers of the 24th century would be "better" at it (it being the concept of modular and adaptive design) and keep this well in mind when greating a capital ship like the Galaxy.

I think the easiest way to sum it up is they tried to make something that looks "cool". Looking at these pictures its clear as day (as you point out) it isn't an efficient design for phaser stripping. It's ridiculous. There is a reason why a bubble is the most efficient shape in nature. Rounding it would have given it far more with to work with. Hell, even the the monstrously ugly Enterprise J was round. That said I would only be repeating what you said - very good post, my man,
thanks, i cant stand how shrimpy the arrays are on all of cryptic's ships, they really need guys like us advising them on these basic technical must haves, they are clueless. oh and the odyssey has no viable sensor arrays like the galaxy had in the rum of the saucer and secondary hull or the diamond the intrepid had in its saucer. well, i guess the sovereign doesn't have anything like that ether
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Ensign
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
# 377
10-04-2012, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i used to remember a few, the only one that comes to mind right now is rascals. the ferengi beat and took over the enterprise with 2 salvaged bops and like 10 ferengi. against a ship with 1000 people and the ability to destroy both ships in a torpedo spread or a single phaser blast each. that single shot the D fired at the bop in generations should have ended the fight, antimaterial round through a watermelon like.
The Feringi, yeah, it was PIS but doesn't really reflect the ships fortitude (or lack of). Yeah, generations ending was absurd, but it did showcase something. When the Enterprise is destroyed and the saucer separates it really showcases just how well the ship was constructed. Lets move past the ridiculousness of Riker not just saying "Fire all weapons - maximum yield" and look at it from a lesson point of view.

The saucer section escaped, entered the atmosphere and proceeded to skim across a mountain range (coming for orbit) like a pebble skipping across a pond. Thrusters obviously helped but still, the saucer section was intact with little damage and the crew survived. Yes, it sucked how Ricker suddenly became an idiot but again (as aforementioned) it illustrated how tough the ship is.

Compare that to how much damage the Enterprise E took from ramming the Reman ship. High orbit crash Vs ramming speed from such a distance hardly any momentum was generated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the bridge banter on the odyssey stated that there weapons were having no effect against the jem hadar shields, which is frankly impossible, you cant dissipate that much energy regardless of what setting your shields have. they also mentioned that the odyssey's shields were completely infective against the polaron based weapons, and that they tried every frequency.

they didn't open fire until the bugs were literally underneath the saucer. if the odyssey had fired on them like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=H_XbWq49vUM there would not have been a battle, as long as their weapons were allowed to deal damage by the writers. at the very least they could have sent 9 bugs against the ship so it wasn't such an embarrassing loss. just an absurd battle
The destruction of the Odyssey is very interesting. Like anyone else I was blown away when it happened (when I first saw it in a new episode, not rerun). The makers used to to try and illiterate how powerful and dangerous the dominion was by killing the Feds best and most powerful ship. After that I fell into the "Oh it died easy, they suck now" train of thought like most people do. Years ago (and years after first seeing it) when I got into the hobby of studying these things for STar Trek forum discussion several things dawned on me.

I agree with you, it was stupid but that is what PIS is all about. Still, when you look past it the scene shows a hell of a lot.

The Odyssey sustained fired, unshielded on screen for 10 minutes. 3 ships, with very powerful weapons were pounding her almost relentlessly. Even after the beating she took she was still able to head home. Most importantly was what happened when she was destroyed. We all know she was rammed - the death blow came from being rammed in her engineering section. However, if you look at her before she blew very little damage was actually done to the vessel in comparison to being rammed at full speed. If you look at that instance, compare it to what happens to BoP (they are obliterated when rammed) and the much larger Vor Cha (when we see them rammed they are split in half like a machete cutting into a melon) Galaxys display an insane amount of damage soak and hull fortitude.

After that we see on screen Galaxys with ablative strips over the engineering section (once again illustrating the ship is upgraded). We see on the assault against the orbital weapons platforms soaking up damage and keep trucking through while other ships are eaten alive. We see them deep within dominion lines in sacrfice of angels (including one shotting a big old bad dominion cruiser) showing again how powerful and tough they are.

I agree with what you at about the crew but again if you look past it and just absorb the data it says a hell of a lot as to why the Galaxy was the premier battleship of the Federation. As for the polaron beams, well, I agree but thats how it was done so sadly it is cannon but does make sense as to why things happen(ed). I remember a conversation between Weyun and Dukat with Weyun saying basically ah federation weapons are ineffective against Dominion shields. Dukat retorts never under estimate Star Fleet engineers. So in short, although it doesn't make sense phaser really didn't work at first it was actually what happened.

Last edited by roboydo; 10-04-2012 at 03:04 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,180
# 378
10-04-2012, 03:19 PM
yep, if i wasn't looking past all that i wouldn't be coming to the conclusion that the galaxy is without peer as far as federation ships go. i recall them betting on DS9's shields not being able to defend against their weapons too, boy were they surprised.

i remember seeing quite a wile ago now an examination of hull thickness between the sov and galaxy, thanks to the sov ramming we got a pretty good canon look. then there was info about it in the tech manual and some screens to draw from and the galaxy's smooth, flowing, window filled hull was actually quite a bit thicker.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,839
# 379
10-04-2012, 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
No, no, I understand this perfectly the thing is that we ALL KNOW that it's only going to get used for a tactical BOFF so your comment about uni BOFF was completely unnecessary. If you want to have a uni station why not change the ensign to uni that gives you all the flexibility you would have had using your suggestion and at a lower cost i.e. you keep the built in science and most of the useful engineering and still get that ensign to play with.
So you prefer to be "forced" to use a science Lt. Even if you could have a universal to be much more flexible, then who keeps you from using a Sci BOFF on that station?
Is the Regent much more vulnerable because it has a Lt. universal instead of a Lt. Science, no of course not. You can use a Science Lt. if the situation needs it, but you are not forced to use one, that's the important part.

For that Galaxy Class, i would be ok if the (eng.) Ensign AND the (sci.) Lt. would become universal, but making the (eng.) ensign alone a universal slot is too little and not very useful in the first place.
Another thing, why is the nebula so versatile and the galaxy is not, they are from the same time period (meaning they are both not new anymore) and very similar ships in structure and design?
It's because the devs just don't have a good opinion about TNG or the Galaxy Class itself. Its BOFF & Console Layout have nothing to do with the "real" ship, it's just how the devs want to have the Galaxy Class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Also as a result of running 6 beam arrays on the ship you are losing a lot of it's damage potential. As we all know from the show the ships firepower is focussed forward and if you get out of the firing range of the forward beam you have a chance at bringing the thing down, I think the devs did a good job of portraying this design flaw and there are things you can do to maximise your all round damage potential; as someone said before me use a DBB.


A DBB plus EPtW plus EPS Power transfer plus Nadion inversion plus AP:B (in place already) plus Weapons battery plus TT plus BO = A **** Ton of damage (even more if it crits)
Loosing damage potential when using 6 Beams? Have you ever heard of boardsiding? Ever heard of energy drain?
One of the Builds you where linking actually was suggesting to use 2 tropedo launchers in the aft weapons slots.
Sorry, but i'm still laughing.

I never use other peoples builds on my ships, i can create a effective build that fits for my needs myself. You never really know how that person does actually play or what goals that person wants to archieve with that ship.

You can use 6 or even 7 Beam arrays on a Cruiser if you chain 2x EptW. That gives your ship enough power to keep fireing. That is where the main damage potential of a Cruiser lies, not in unsing dual beam banks, especially not with a slow turning Galaxy Class.
In STO cruisers are made to hammer boardsides on their enemies, but to do that the galaxy has insufficient tac consoles and too few/not high enough tac BOFF slots.
But if you are sucessful with it using DBB, then please go on.


I never said that i where unable to do damage with a Galaxy Class, i said that COMPARED to almost all other ships in the game, the Galaxy is just to teethless and to passive.
Everything you can do with a Galaxy Class to increase it's active role in combat can be done much better with ANY other ship. That's my point.


If you knew the "real" ship then you would know that the Galaxys main Phaser array is something like 300 degrees instead of a Dual Beam Banks 90 degrees. That ship was capable to release huge amounts of damage in that zone, the rest of the ship was secured with a lot of smaller phaser arrays.


Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Now imagine that from an escorts point of view, a Galaxy class "weak brick" just tore lots of holes in your hull, admittedly you've got 3 minutes to prepare for the next one, and on top of this that ship is still dishing it out, so you have to change tactics and defend and rebuild. now if you take your escort in behind this ship and it starts firing torps at you two a time WITH decent broadside damage are you gonna keep at it? (I wouldn't. I'd go pick on some helpless tank that is incapable of putting up a fight).

So what those two paragraphs says is that actually the galaxy is far from defenceless and even less so with a tac at the helm, which happens to be what it was designed for. Give it a go, I used to run a similar Excelsior to good effect
Yeah the Galaxy is far from defenseless.... sure.
I have no idea what enemies Escorts you are fighting, but the ones i was fighting knew exactly how to use their ships. Surely there where some who obviously couldn't find the "fire" button, but those don't count IMO.
Sure, you can tickle any enemy to death, if you have enough time and the Escort pilot dosen't break combat because it is just too boring.


Thank you for reading.

-> -> -> STO players unite and say NO to ARC <- <- <-
T6 Guardian Class design / A 25th century Ambassador refit

Last edited by yreodred; 10-04-2012 at 03:34 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,284
# 380
10-04-2012, 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
Loosing damage potential when using 6 Beams? Have you ever heard of boardsiding? Ever heard of energy drain?
One of the Builds you where linking actually was suggesting to use 2 tropedo launchers in the aft weapons slots.
Sorry, but i'm still laughing.
Actually if you were to try this you would find it's quite effective dropping 2 torps at a time in an escorts face, and one of the reasons I suggested a 4 beam broadside WAS the power drain from 6 also you'll get a little more damage out of your cycling EPtWs with 4 over 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
That is where the main damage potential of a Cruiser lies, not in unsing dual beam banks, especially not with a slow turning Galaxy Class.
In STO cruisers are made to hammer boardsides on their enemies, but to do that the galaxy has insufficient tac consoles and too few/not high enough tac BOFF slots.
But if you are sucessful with it using DBB, then please go on.
With regard to it's slow turn rate: that's why I mentioned the use of reverse gear. Also when you mention not using other peoples builds because you don't know their goals, I put that together with the goals of damage output and damage sponging to the greatest extent I could so effectively: Your goals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
I never said that i where unable to do damage with a Galaxy Class, i said that COMPARED to almost all other ships in the game, the Galaxy is just to teethless and to passive.
Everything you can do with a Galaxy Class to increase it's active role in combat can be done much better with ANY other ship. That's my point.
Not really, I think your galaxy would beat my Oddy when it comes to damage sponging and that's damn hard to kill

Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
If you knew the "real" ship then you would know that the Galaxys main Phaser array is something like 300 degrees instead of a Dual Beam Banks 90 degrees. That ship was capable to release huge amounts of damage in that zone, the rest of the ship was secured with a lot of smaller phaser arrays.
In fact I do know the ship, I know it pretty damned well actually my idea of using a DBB with Beam overload was an attempt to replicate that kind of firepower, ok so it'll only work in a 90 degree angle of the frint of your ship but on a ship that size 90 degs is still a large area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
Yeah the Galaxy is far from defenseless.... sure.
I have no idea what enemies Escorts you are fighting, but the ones i was fighting knew exactly how to use their ships. Surely there where some who obviously couldn't find the "fire" button, but those don't count IMO.
Sure, you can tickle any enemy to death, if you have enough time and the Escort pilot dosen't break combat because it is just too boring.
All the escorts I've fought have also known exactly where to find the fire button but if you put enough holes in them they are forced to break combat, I find all my ships to be more effective in PvP than in PvE and a battery and other assorted buff powered DBB beam overload is going to quickly put such holes in an escort, also with warp plasma on the back combined with dual torp launchers combined with the ships built in ability to tank makes you a meal that really isn't worth the effort to have.
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