Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 201
10-05-2012, 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
just do us a favour and klick on the link i provided and actually read the subsection i pointed out, before further derailing this thread. it is little known fact that machine guns had proven little effective on bombers during the second world war.

but knowing you, you chose to ignore facts in fovour of your own opinion.
Because fighter planes attack in packs, they don't go one on one with a bomber group. Do yourself a favor and read the whole story an not just one little passage. You seem to be focusing on the failded versions of bombers becasue there are so many prototypes.

Last edited by alexindcobra; 10-05-2012 at 01:42 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,181
# 202
10-05-2012, 02:05 PM
Look, you lot, STOP IT! enough is enough and this has nothing to do with Star trek or STO!

Now lets get back on topic here. Cruisers don't have the same firepower of escorts and YES they can tank but I think we do need to up them a little, not by much but certainly a bit, Just to close down the gap produced by the changing of content focus and the non enhancement of cruisers an sci ships to compensate.

If anything we as engineers are complaining about our ships not being up to much; lets look at our poor science colleges they're in even worse condition, take an escort into a STF and it'll destroy everything before anything has a chance to do anything, take a cruiser into an STF and it can tank to the point of taking no damage. Sci ships don't have these luxuries, they can't keep up with the damage of cruisers and the devs made most of their skills either effectual to NPCs or just ineffectual.

So lets stop bashing each other, lets stop having a go at eachother for suggesting ideas that may encroach on escort territory and perhaps suggest ways to tone them down a little or find ways of keeping escorts a little above them.

Personally my escort bores the living daylights out of me because it's just too powerful (but if I tone it down people complain that I'm a noob and I'm not doing enough DPS so as an escort pilot I can't win), my cruiser feels underpowered (despite it's recent upgrade) and my science is only effective as a healboat.

This needs sorting such that the other tow classes can support escorts better be that by increasing beam damage, decreasing DC/DHC, a mix of the two or even reworking the combat system such that DPS is not the be all and end all in the game.

REASONABLE SUGGESTIONS PLEASE!
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 203
10-05-2012, 03:07 PM
You could learn about basic game mechanics before opening your mouth.
That's as reasonable as a suggestion can be.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,714
# 204
10-05-2012, 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post

Now lets get back on topic here. Cruisers don't have the same firepower of escorts and YES they can tank but I think we do need to up them a little, not by much but certainly a bit, Just to close down the gap produced by the changing of content focus and the non enhancement of cruisers an sci ships to compensate.
I've often said I'd be all for a slight turning bump for cruisers, a slight DPS increase might be ok as well, provided they lost some tankyness... maybe at a 2 for 1 ration of tankyness vs. DPS? That seems to be how they are designed as a general rule. I say this because it might have the happy unexpected consequence of making players need to learn to play their cruisers from early levels intead of walking into E STFs thinking staying at 10 km and scowling at a Tac cube will be sufficient..... even if they only learned a few basics it'd be an improvement that would be instantly felt across the game!

Sadly the players that consider themselves "true trek fans" will never accept that cruisers aren't the be all and end all since they want their giant battleships... but without going KDF. I would feel a lot more sympathetic towards them if so often they wouldn't say how they think escort and sci pilots should support their big hero ships. Naturally I'm a "Sisko" style of captain so that #$%^ won't fly with me...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,181
# 205
10-06-2012, 03:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I've often said I'd be all for a slight turning bump for cruisers, a slight DPS increase might be ok as well, provided they lost some tankyness... maybe at a 2 for 1 ration of tankyness vs. DPS?
I think this with the opposite ratio for escorts (perhaps a slightly lower shield mod) I think escorts could use a slight boost to max hull though, the number of times my escorts have been 1 shotted by the borg is unreal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
I would feel a lot more sympathetic towards them if so often they wouldn't say how they think escort and sci pilots should support their big hero ships. Naturally I'm a "Sisko" style of captain so that #$%^ won't fly with me...
Well in all fairness everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I do see why escorts are the primary damage dealers, frankly they aren't that good at much else, I think sci ships and cruisers could use a slight damage boost, science more than cruisers they've paid for it by having most of their skills nerfed.

Sitting a cruiser at 10km at endgame and expecting it to be as successful as during the story is fair however it wrong, I personally have noticed my weapons are more effective during the story for a given distance than they are in STFs at the same distance. I think cruises could work better as a support ship if they were dishing out more damage at 5km than they are presently thus keeping us "Kirks" and "Picards" out of the way of you "Siskos" while still dealing out enough damage to nicely supplement yours, I've said this multiple times and I would be quite happy both as a cruiser pilot and as an escort pilot.

Perhaps we could make this a beam-wide buff thereby escorts would also be affected if they use them or perhaps we could make it a property of cruisers as beams are their primary weapon whereas escort primary weapons are cannons, which frankly don't need any more damage potential.

How does this sound to you? (for anyone else - if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it. I'm here to discuss this not bash anyone)
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,765
# 206
10-06-2012, 03:47 AM
We have escorts that can deal 15,000 to 20,000
Dps while the cruiser is lucky to deal 4,000

Escorts at high speed have a better defence
Value than any cruiser because you simply can't
Hit them even with max skills and 30% Acc weapons

The entire system is broken and won't be fixed
Because cryptic is making money off making the
Escorts predators with the I win button and cruisers
And science ships there prey.

It's easy to see that if you look at it

There is no uber lock box cruiser is there ?

No there isn't and there won't be because
Cruisers are the entertainment for the escorts

Nothing else can explain the total lack of balance
Between the classes

Go escort or go home...........
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
Leva........Tactical.....Mailu KDF Sci

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,181
# 207
10-06-2012, 06:47 AM
jellico, while threads like these exist there is still a chance for us to force the hands of the devs and if we ever give up then they will continue to make us less and less useful.

So come on, this thread is still open, there is still time to oppose the current combat system, there is still time for us to discuss solutions to the problem and it's not just us cruiser pilots who need to talk about this but we do need to get the escort crowd in on it and give them reasons to support our requests, naturally of course this involves them looking at our ideas and suggesting ways to improve upon them to make them better for all of us rather than saying things like "L2P".

So come on guys, let's all work together to create a better game for all of us and if you escort pilots don't need cruisers then suggest ways to make us more useful to you rather than just saying "Escorts are meant to be the primary DDs" We know this already! We also know that we are supposed (according to the game mechanics) to be a support class but in a game of DPS a low DPS ship isn't going to be any real good as support now is it?

Look, if we can all come to an agreeable solution that we can all stand behind maybe we can post it as a new thread, stand behind it there and maybe then the devs will make it happen, I know it probably wont work but we will never know if we don't try.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,734
# 208
10-06-2012, 07:40 AM
I still say it's maneuverability that's the issue. Escorts fly like one would expect a fighter to fly - not a large ship. No, the Escort is not as large as the Cruiser - but it is still a large ship. If maneuverability were addressed, I believe you would see that many of the issues complained about would also be addressed.

I've always been surprised by the focus on X or Y, while ignoring Z which would work toward fixing X and Y without requiring either an arms race or an arms embargo...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,181
# 209
10-06-2012, 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
I still say it's maneuverability that's the issue. Escorts fly like one would expect a fighter to fly - not a large ship. No, the Escort is not as large as the Cruiser - but it is still a large ship. If maneuverability were addressed, I believe you would see that many of the issues complained about would also be addressed.
The problem with this is that if escorts didn't move as fast as they do it would be even easier to get DC/DHCs on a target and keep them there thus they would do even more damage than they do now...

I agree that escorts do move a little faster than they should but slowing them down without lowering their damage output would cause yet more problems in PvE... something we don't need
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,734
# 210
10-06-2012, 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
The problem with this is that if escorts didn't move as fast as they do it would be even easier to get DC/DHCs on a target and keep them there thus they would do even more damage than they do now...

I agree that escorts do move a little faster than they should but slowing them down without lowering their damage output would cause yet more problems in PvE... something we don't need
Um, they can adjust their speed. So I'm not sure what you're saying there. They don't have stop and go... they can adjust the speed.

Now if you lower that top speed - lower the turn rate.... then they would have a harder time getting on target. It's the absurd maneuverability that allows them to keep those DHCs on the target while the Cruiser tends to sport BAs. It's what allows packs of them to line up on a single facing or maneuver around to attack the weak facing.

Picture DHCs on a Cruiser for a moment - it would be pretty bad, no? You couldn't keep them on the target - your damage output would drop. Tada, if Escorts did not have the crazy maneuverability that they do...their damage output would drop.

And like I said, adjusting that would not only affect their offensive capabilities - but it would also affect their defensive capabilities. An Escort can easily hug a target's weakest arc - which means they're facing less of a threat/less damage.

If you just adjust a certain weapon up or down, then they'll just switch weapons but still maintain the advantage because of their maneuverability.
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