Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,652
# 211
10-06-2012, 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I think this with the opposite ratio for escorts (perhaps a slightly lower shield mod) I think escorts could use a slight boost to max hull though, the number of times my escorts have been 1 shotted by the borg is unreal.
TBH neither an escort nor cruiser should get one shot UNLESS they're in the wrong place. Much like a WoW raid, part of STFs is not "standing in the fire" as it were.. ie, being in a bad position (unless its a gate.. those cheeky gates can get you anywhere below a certain range it seems! but gates are not moving cubes of doom, so its nowhere as bad.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I think cruises could work better as a support ship if they were dishing out more damage at 5km than they are presently thus keeping us "Kirks" and "Picards" out of the way of you "Siskos" while still dealing out enough damage to nicely supplement yours, I've said this multiple times and I would be quite happy both as a cruiser pilot and as an escort pilot.
This is how it works right now, the only difference is that effective weapons range is quite a bit closer. The challenge lies more in positioning and the cruiser's dismal turning. My cruiser has 2 RCS consoles... I still say a slight turn buff to cruisers would make them far more effective and fun to fly. Mainly because they could be "in position" more often. If spreadsheet balance must be maintained some tankyness would not be missed.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,691
# 212
10-06-2012, 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
TBH neither an escort nor cruiser should get one shot UNLESS they're in the wrong place. Much like a WoW raid, part of STFs is not "standing in the fire" as it were.. ie, being in a bad position (unless its a gate.. those cheeky gates can get you anywhere below a certain range it seems! but gates are not moving cubes of doom, so its nowhere as bad.)
Well thee is this but the number of times I've been hit for 60k+ is ridiculous, there isn't a player ship in the game that can take that, the other thing they really need to lose is those invisible torps the bog are so fond of I swear those gates will just sit there until they get bored of you and of "I'm bored of you now..." and poof you're dead, hey, even the cubes do it from time to time

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
This is how it works right now, the only difference is that effective weapons range is quite a bit closer. The challenge lies more in positioning and the cruiser's dismal turning. My cruiser has 2 RCS consoles... I still say a slight turn buff to cruisers would make them far more effective and fun to fly. Mainly because they could be "in position" more often. If spreadsheet balance must be maintained some tankyness would not be missed.
I'm interested to know what cruiser you use, I don't have the turn problem with my Excelsior, in fact I think if it were to turn much faster I'd have issues with my broadside. I personally would set the cruisers most effective range at 4-6km as this gives them a nice overview of the battle and keeps them out of everyone elses way and perhaps as an alternative to giving them more damage, lower NPC resists

I agree with the devs in that the optimised builds were getting a little out of hand, but to raise NPC stats such that the only viable way of killing them was to play an escort and that the only viable way of surviving them was to play a cruiser was the wrong way to go about it. I personally think that NPC stats should have been raised a little and tac buff power reduced a little just to keep them in check, this would have helped keep a player damage balance that made the vast majority happy while still giving the optimised builds merit in that they had 1 up on the normal builds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 213
10-06-2012, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1 View Post
We have escorts that can deal 15,000 to 20,000
Dps while the cruiser is lucky to deal 4,000

Escorts at high speed have a better defence
Value than any cruiser because you simply can't
Hit them even with max skills and 30% Acc weapons

The entire system is broken and won't be fixed
Because cryptic is making money off making the
Escorts predators with the I win button and cruisers
And science ships there prey.

It's easy to see that if you look at it

There is no uber lock box cruiser is there ?

No there isn't and there won't be because
Cruisers are the entertainment for the escorts

Nothing else can explain the total lack of balance
Between the classes

Go escort or go home...........
What have you been smoking?
No Escort in game can sustain 5-digit dps numbers! None!
Well, unless you sit on an immobile, unshielded and immortal target with a projectile build - but in that case your effective dps is zero.
Anything else in the 5-digit range is burst.

Also: Escort have a total of 10% extra defense. No more.
And: There's a minimum to-hit chance of 25%. You can't become un-hittable.

Are you having fun trolling gullible Cruiser-deadbeats into actually believing this crap?
Or are you really that dumb that you actually believe what you're saying?
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 214
10-06-2012, 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
What have you been smoking?
No Escort in game can sustain 5-digit dps numbers! None!
Well, unless you sit on an immobile, unshielded and immortal target with a projectile build - but in that case your effective dps is zero.
Anything else in the 5-digit range is burst.

Also: Escort have a total of 10% extra defense. No more.
And: There's a minimum to-hit chance of 25%. You can't become un-hittable.

Are you having fun trolling gullible Cruiser-deadbeats into actually believing this crap?
Or are you really that dumb that you actually believe what you're saying?
This.
My Tac/Escort is pretty tricked out and I fly it very aggressively (no "fly at 9km from target" BS) but even then my max DPS is ~8250 in ISE.
I have no recent CSE or KASE parses, but they'd be lower since those events involve more travelling time.

I might be able to eke out a tiny bit more DPS (I'm thinking of a tweak that'll reduce survivability somewhat but increase impulse speed; therefore decreasing downtime), but 15k-20k is a bold-faced lie.


As for Defense, not only do Escorts only get 10% more, they often have little to none!
Front-mounted weapons mean you can't fly at 24+ Impulse most of the time or your DPS will be horrible (much worse than a Cruiser's); whereas a broadside can be maintained indefinetely on the move so in practice Cruisers usually have the most Defense by a vast margin.

Defense is granted through:
- Impulse Speed: caps at ~45% at 24 Impulse.
- Starship Maneuvers: .15% per Skill Point, caps at 99*.15%=14.85% at 9 Ranks.
- Elusive: +10%.
- Escort: +10%.
Although an Escort maxes at 55%-80%, in practice it'll be around 15% or less most of the time, whereas a Cruiser can maintain 45%-70% all the time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 215
10-06-2012, 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post

Beams do more DPV than cannons and Cannons do more DPS than beams.
Two different types of damage are applied by weapon in STO.
Beams are designed for sustained High Damage Per Volley attacks with low DPS.
Cannons are designed for Burst Damage Per Second attacks with low DPV.

To say beams do less damage than Cannons is misleading and only half true. Beams do less DPS than cannons only. They are not a burst weapon.
That is only true when applied to anything outside of DHC bitemepwe.
Comparing a DHC to a BA shows a fairly large gap.

Base figures for a MkXII:
220 DPV
176 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII DBB:
287 DPV
229 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII Cannon:
159 DPV
212 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII DC:
192 DPV
256 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII DHC:
384 DPV
256 DPS


What'd I like to see is an upgrade to array damage to look something like these.

Base figures for a MkXII BA:
260 DPV
200 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII HBA:
400 DPV
200 DPS
(Would be fore mounted only and have a 200 degree arc)

Last edited by veraticus; 10-06-2012 at 11:15 AM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 232
# 216
10-06-2012, 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by quiscustodiet View Post
This.
My Tac/Escort is pretty tricked out and I fly it very aggressively (no "fly at 9km from target" BS) but even then my max DPS is ~8250 in ISE.
I have no recent CSE or KASE parses, but they'd be lower since those events involve more travelling time.

I might be able to eke out a tiny bit more DPS (I'm thinking of a tweak that'll reduce survivability somewhat but increase impulse speed; therefore decreasing downtime), but 15k-20k is a bold-faced lie.


As for Defense, not only do Escorts only get 10% more, they often have little to none!
Front-mounted weapons mean you can't fly at 24+ Impulse most of the time or your DPS will be horrible (much worse than a Cruiser's); whereas a broadside can be maintained indefinetely on the move so in practice Cruisers usually have the most Defense by a vast margin.

Defense is granted through:
- Impulse Speed: caps at ~45% at 24 Impulse.
- Starship Maneuvers: .15% per Skill Point, caps at 99*.15%=14.85% at 9 Ranks.
- Elusive: +10%.
- Escort: +10%.
Although an Escort maxes at 55%-80%, in practice it'll be around 15% or less most of the time, whereas a Cruiser can maintain 45%-70% all the time.
QFT.
And before someone accuses you of being an Escort-deadbeat: that 8.25k beats everything I've seen so far, while still being possible.
Let me guess: very good group, constant debuffs on targets, crosshealing?
Very nice performance anyway.



Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
That is only true when applied to anything outside of DHC bitemepwe.
Comparing a DHC to a BA shows a fairly large gap.

Base figures for a MkXII:
220 DPV
176 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII DBB:
287 DPV
229 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII Cannon:
159 DPV
212 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII DC:
192 DPV
256 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII DHC:
384 DPV
256 DPS


What'd I like to see is an upgrade to array damage to look something like these.

Base figures for a MkXII BA:
260 DPV
200 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII HBA:
400 DPV
200 DPS
(Would be fore mounted only and have a 200 degree arc)
Hello?
Even at the moment, a Tac with a dedicated dps build, flying a 50$ (actually 75$, the 180? Quantum ...) brick build for dps ... is already far into Escort territory dps-wise - and that's a beam-boat!
Not to mention that there's the Dreadnought and the D'Kora, which are both full Battle-Cruisers available to the Federation.

Your "buffed" BA would put that 75$ brick at the top of the dps-charts, while still out-tanking every escort.

Your HBA is just sick - that and a BO3, and you can one-shot people in PvP. Completely broken and imbalanced.

What's wrong with you guys?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 217
10-06-2012, 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
QFT.
Hello?
Even at the moment, a Tac with a dedicated dps build, flying a 50$ (actually 75$, the 180? Quantum ...) brick build for dps ... is already far into Escort territory dps-wise - and that's a beam-boat!
Not to mention that there's the Dreadnought and the D'Kora, which are both full Battle-Cruisers available to the Federation.

Your "buffed" BA would put that 75$ brick at the top of the dps-charts, while still out-tanking every escort.

Your HBA is just sick - that and a BO3, and you can one-shot people in PvP. Completely broken and imbalanced.

What's wrong with you guys?
Chill out Flekh, yeesh.

It wouldn't out dps Escorts. It would be a 444 standard dps increase over a 4 beam fore loadout.

With a 400 DPV and a 200 DPS thats a very slow cycle rate of fire. Hits hard yes, but not very quickly. In fact it would be the slowest cycle of any energy weapon in the game right now.

And the DPS number on mine is still the second to lowest value in the game for energy weapons. Even remains below DBB numbers. But allowing it to hit hard means a feeling of meaningful contribution. And it allows a beamboat to have a better peak potential than it does now. And it doesn't compare to an Escorts better on demand, and passive, peak burst potential so I don't see an issue there.

In PvP, from what I understand, Escorts are able to pick and choose what shield facing they would like to target. So having an already capable Escort players have to attack from a rear quarter or just the rear of a Cruiser, wouldn't be that mean of a feat.
This would also be available to both factions not just one or the other.

And the Dreadnought that you have described to me is one that uses DHC not arrays so...
He would likely continue to use DHC's if he is wanting exclusively high DPS output all the time. The HBA would allow a typical Cruiser pilot flexibility without being a sitting sponge.

Yes BO as a whole would have to be tweaked for ANY new beam weapons.
Or you could introduce a new sub-set of array powers.

FAW(HBA) & BO(HBA)
FAW(HBA) remains basically the same but has a shorter duration and increases energy drain by 1 per shot.
BO(HBA) again remains basically the same but puts out a greatly diminished % number vs its regular counterpart.

Doing that would create a new playstyle that retains all of the basic advantages and disadvantages as before.



EDIT:
What kind of numbers are you seeing DPS wise from Tac Captains in 75$ bricks?
So far no-one has been able to give me a real number. Supposedly their aren't any good Tac/Cruiser Captains either. Best I've seen from anyone on here concerning a Cruiser is 5,000-5,500 range and thats using a D'Kora or Regeant, both are ships that wouldn't see much of a change in numbers from what they are putting out right now.

So it would seem that the gap would be reduced from 3,000 DPS down to roughly 1,000-1,500 DPS and that's running every possible DPS/Damage increasing BOff ability that they can. So the durability/tankiness of those ships is already greatly reduced.

Last edited by veraticus; 10-06-2012 at 01:02 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,312
# 218
10-06-2012, 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
That is only true when applied to anything outside of DHC bitemepwe.
Comparing a DHC to a BA shows a fairly large gap.

Base figures for a MkXII:
220 DPV
176 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII DBB:
287 DPV
229 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII Cannon:
159 DPV
212 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII DC:
192 DPV
256 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII DHC:
384 DPV
256 DPS


What'd I like to see is an upgrade to array damage to look something like these.

Base figures for a MkXII BA:
260 DPV
200 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII HBA:
400 DPV
200 DPS
(Would be fore mounted only and have a 200 degree arc)
I never said that difference did not exist between a single beam array and a dual heavy cannon in dammage.
The DBB is meant to be the "big" beam weapon in comparison to the DHC.
Slightly lower damage for a wider firing arc. It does fall short in comparison.

How about opening the DBB to 180 degree firing arc and instead making the proposed Heavy Beam array a DHC level damage weapon with its firing cyle and a 90 degree firing arc?

Then a new Beam BOff ability that basically CRF for beams set-up for tiers 1 to 3.


Of course would only fair to create a cannon version of beam overload as well.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 219
10-06-2012, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I never said that difference did not exist between a single beam array and a dual heavy cannon in dammage.
The DBB is meant to be the "big" beam weapon in comparison to the DHC.
Slightly lower damage for a wider firing arc. It does fall short in comparison.

How about opening the DBB to 180 degree firing arc and instead making the proposed Heavy Beam array a DHC level damage weapon with its firing cyle and a 90 degree firing arc?

Then a new Beam BOff ability that basically CRF for beams set-up for tiers 1 to 3.


Of course would only fair to create a cannon version of beam overload as well.
It does indeed, lol.
I would like at least a 200 degree arc so that Cruisers/Battlecruisers aren't completely gimped once you get past that 180 mark and all they have left are an inferior turn rate and 4 inferior weapon placements.

I kind of look at FAW as the counterpart to CSV & CRF.
Its an ability that increases your rate of fire(CRF) and functions as an AoE(CSV).

Maybe a Concentrate Fire Power 1 through 3???
And drop BO imo.
Say they did either create an HBA or input your idea for the DBB, BO does get out of hand.
And imo, its already a tad to far into the semi worthless side of things.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 372
# 220
10-06-2012, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
And drop BO imo.
Say they did either create an HBA or input your idea for the DBB, BO does get out of hand.
And imo, its already a tad to far into the semi worthless side of things.
What are you TALKING about?! BO is 'semi-worthless'? No wonder people think cruisers can't do damage, if they think BO is not worth taking. Against a target with shields (which is most of them) Beam Overload powers are about the best spike damage available in the game, and cruisers have the ability to recover fastest from the energy drain, so I'm not sure why a beam cruiser would ever NOT be running this.
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