Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 231
10-07-2012, 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
For Cruisers though, threads like these, and talk like this in-game ... actually leads to people BELIEVING that Cruisers are broken, and instead of trying harder, instead of learning ... they come to the forums and make unneccessary threads, with imbalanced ideas and lots of whining.
Flekh is right. Cruisers aren't broken. Just used wrong. I never thought I would be saying this until last night when I finally broke down and got myself the Oddy 3 pack. Got in the tac oddy, put on saucer sep, and went for a shakedown cruise. A few stfs later and lots of MAJOR surprise on my part, I was taken. Cruisers can put out decent dps. I have proven this time and time again with my AC after I did some modifications to it's BOff layout and DOffs. I also changed my playstyle a little and stopped doing long range bombardment and closed in to around 4-6k. I also changed my positioning so that I could keep all my weapons on target. Basic things I should have done to begin with.

I re-applied this learning to the Odyssey Tac Cruiser, and then as soon as I hit saucer sep, it was insane. I was EASILY, and I say again EASILY maintaining 900-1100 per shot. PER SHOT. Even with all my arrays firing I never dropped below 700 per shot. And if I hit EPtW, I never dropped below 100 power (except once and that was because I got hit by a polaron proc) and with EPtW active I consistently was hitting 1000-1300 per shot (with AP:B and TT active, YES, THE TT MATTERS). Sufficed to say, I think my weapons power was around 160 with EPtW active, and around 140 without it. Throw in saucer sep it went up to 150 without EPtW, and with EPtW, 170. My dps was around 5k easiliy. EASILY. Which I find to be a mite distressing since before my DPS was only around 3500.

But flekh is right. Cruisers can put out some pretty heavy dps and still be tanky as balls. My oddy's shields almost never went down, even with saucer sep active, and when they did, the stupid thing just would not die (something about 50k hp with reinforced armor). So I will say that yes, if you don't get certain cruisers and just use the free ones, you will be a little weaker. But that's the name of the game. As was pointed out, P2W. I paid. And am now able to win a little better (and believe me, that 50 bucks hurt lol...). However the really amazing part that had me blown away was the fact I was able to put out those kinds of numbers and was STILL ABLE TO HEAL AND TANK. It's crazy. But true.

So it's not a learn to play really. Me saying that would probably make me throw up as I typed it. But it's more of a learn what is proven to work, and then change it and make it your own without losing the main "MAKES IT WORK" part. I did that. I looked up what worked, modified it to match me, and then used it. And it worked. And everyone who says the Oddy sucks, you can blow it out your rear, that thing is amazing.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.

Last edited by hereticknight085; 10-08-2012 at 12:35 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,360
# 232
10-07-2012, 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
I'd still push for a wider arc but you do raise an excellent point about zombie boats.(I call the skillet!)

I'd say a wider arc because it still deals a lower dps than anything other than the base array. 180 would be nice, but your zombie boat does make me wonder but I'd still see broadsiding as a staple of the Cruiser so the 180 would likely be required in order to do damage.
The DPS of 200 is onl 56 points lower than DHCs.
Beams tend to do lowish DPS but high DPV.
Heavy Beams do 400 DPV which is 16 points high than DHCs.
I would think a FA of 90? is paid for by those 56 points but made up for by beams design that gives them a higher DPV so Heavy beams come out slightly ahead.
It seems.

Altering DBBs to 200? and making usable both fore and aft is a fine advantage over getting HCs yo a wider arc.
STO is very much an Adam One culture and completely inarticulate about Adam Two.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 216
# 233
10-07-2012, 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flekh View Post
I'll pick this up at this question, since it's pretty much the central one, isn't it?
Works for me.

Quote:
While I can't tell you for sure ('haven't seen a good Tac-Cruiser either, though I'm sure they exist ... a bit less rare than unicorns. Mine's still in the process of leveling), I can give you some numbers for engineers. Based only on the extra power and the effect of going from 6 to 7 weapons, I'd expect to see at least a 20% increase in dps over my current MAC, which ranges at 3.5k to 4k. That'd make 4.2k to 4.8k as a very conservative estimate for the 75$ brick (low 5k'ish should actually be realistic, thanks to better Tac-focused BOff-layout, better torp-usage and better maneuverability (yes, better, in ... the brick - Saucer Seperation is key to both the Ody and the Gal).
(Math, not just guessing! Consistent with experiments so far.)
I can also add that my KDF Engi in his Vor'Cha gets between 4k and 4.5k, and that's pretty much also the reported values for most Eng'scorts, with them topping out in the low 5k'ish range, just as the Fleet Tor'kaht piloted by an Eng.
Or: DPS-wise, their is very little to no difference between a Beam-wielding Fed Cruiser (P2W as it may be), a KDF Battle Cruiser and an Escort/Raptor.
At least when piloted by the same class of captain.
Surprise!
No surprise, just as you said. Expected. And lines up with what I thought back in the post you quoted.

Quote:
That Tac-captains can beat these numbers by low 20'ish percent shouldn't be too much of a surprise either.
Base values, of course - actual dps are just as much a matter of group-play as of individual ships: AP:B, FOMM, SS - these can make up for another 20'ish percent. As does time-on-target: less traveling, less target-changes, less dps from other team members (allowing for buildup of spikes and efficient use of ability durations), less evasive maneuvers (not the skill ), less time spent facing the wrong way - all of these increase DPS.
But they do so pretty much equally for all ships, and all captains.

For those who haven't done the math already on the way: Multiply these three DPS-increases (Tac, Debuffs, Situational), and you'll end up at the low-to-mid 8k'ish range ... wait, that's ... pretty much excactly as expected.
I wait with baited breath to see your parses with those numbers from a Tactical Captain in a Cruiser. Lol, joking aside, no really. I do want to see actual numbers.

Quote:
What you guys are doing in every single thread though is this: You're comparing terribly badly build and played low-DPS Cruisers ... to optimized killing machines piloted by a Tac.
Of course that one looks bad!
But not because the ships aren't balanced (actually, you could argue that Cruisers are a bit on the OP-side, since that 75$ brick out-tanks every Escort while still dealing pretty much the same DPS) - No! Because a bad player in this game can be extremly worse than a good one!
That simple.
Understandably so you have been quick to point to a L2P tag for most people in this thread.
I have done as you have suggested. And not just because you suggested it. I did it ages ago back when the Galaxy X first came out. Ran a few Fed-Balls even. Did average, ended up just healing as it was a smarter thing to do considering no-one else was doing it ><

An optimized killing machine Tac piloted Cruiser is not tanky.
You have larger hull numbers sure. But you miss out on rather important heals when you go all out DPS, as it should be, and it leaves you in a rather comparable spot to an Escort when all is said and done.

Quote:
Oh, and just in case: I've seen Escorts suck just as bad, or even worse. Patrol Escorts at 600 DPS, Armitage at 800-900 DPS, ... horrible. And not only once, and not the same player either. And not leeching either, but really, really ... trying. And failing hard.
Difference: they don't survive. They either learn, or they quit, or they start to fly Cruisers and go on sucking. Because Cruisers, even if played totally wrong, are pretty tough.
For Cruisers though, threads like these, and talk like this in-game ... actually leads to people BELIEVING that Cruisers are broken, and instead of trying harder, instead of learning ... they come to the forums and make unneccessary threads, with imbalanced ideas and lots of whining.
Wasn't going to comment on Escort pilots sucking.

Quote:
So, no, I won't chill.
I'll tell you that you're doing it wrong until you either see the light, or I get bored with this game and move on. Hopefully the former.
Or ... until you manage to persuade the devs to completely break the game and I'd quit in disgust.
I was asking that you take a breath rather than jumping.
I'm pretty aware of things, thank you. And thank you for your help in furthering that awareness(being honest).

As for us breaking the game...
Quote:
But not because the ships aren't balanced (actually, you could argue that Cruisers are a bit on the OP-side, since that 75$ brick
Can you explain why it is ok to spend more on a single ship, one that will be replaced within a few short months if not sooner, than you would on a car insurance payment.
A co-pay at the doctors or specialist.
A brand new game perhaps.

Yes yes, our ideas are just terrible. But breaking the game further with each new content update or starship is totally ok.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 144
# 234
10-07-2012, 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
The trick, then, is to survive that alpha strike, and wear the escort down with sustained damage. It can be done, it just takes some practice, and once you get that down, you'll see that without that kind of spike damage potential, healing in this game is so powerful that no one would ever die, EVER.

Also, RE: Defense - what you think you see and what is actually happening are two different things, I think. You are just noticing the misses 'more' because it pisses you off to miss, and the animations for the misses make it clear when you do.
/yawn. Then, as an escort pilot, you simply outtank the damage of the cruiser (what is very easy) and wait until your abilities come back. Simply allocate energy to engine and shields, keep flying at maximum speed, stay in the back of the cruiser so only 4 beam arrays can target you. If the cruiser alpha strikes, use RSP1 or evasive manouvers, or brace for impact with 3 blue or purple DOs.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 235
10-07-2012, 10:10 PM
Beams should be just a powerfull as DHC's or close to it.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 236
10-08-2012, 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Beams should be just a powerfull as DHC's or close to it.
Ok screw what I said before about ditching this thread. NO THEY SHOULDN'T. Dude, wtf are you smoking? If you made beams as powerful as the currently most powerful weapons in the game then that would eliminate the need for escorts entirely. I mean cmon, if I had a weapon as powerful as a DHC but with almost 6x the firing arc, why would I ever use a dhc? And if the ships that could use these were twice as tanky naturally as my DHC ship, why would I ever bother to fly them?

And on the flip side, one of the few godsends was that if you caught an escort with their pants down and hit them from the back or the sides, they couldn't bring their fearsome forward cannons to bear instantly and you would have a chance to if not outright destroy them, cause them to withdraw. But imagine now if they didn't even need to bring their noses around?? They could just broadside you with as much damage as they could before, if not MORE!!

What you are proposing with that statement alone is just griefing. And I mean blatantly and utterly imbecilic. I am a proponent for cruisers being stronger and even I was going "WTF???" when I read that. That's wrong dude. And if you actually believe what you just posted there, then you seriously SERIOUSLY need to rethink whether or not you are helping cruisers or just trolling. Because right now, it looks like someone needs to get back under their bridge and stay there.

*shakes his head in utter disgust*
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 237
10-08-2012, 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Beams should be just a powerfull as DHC's or close to it.
still ignoring 24 pages of people telling you why that would be a bad idea for the game. i expected nothing less from you.
This has nothing to do anymore with balance, thats just you wanting to fly your favourite ship (that sucks for dealing dmg btw) and not needing to use brainpower to make a build that would work for your ship, or change the ship to acommodate your need to deal dmg in a cruiser.
Bad captain = bad ship, no matter what class...your case demonstrates this, a classic captain Kirk syndrom.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 238
10-08-2012, 01:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
still ignoring 24 pages of people telling you why that would be a bad idea for the game. i expected nothing less from you.
This has nothing to do anymore with balance, thats just you wanting to fly your favourite ship (that sucks for dealing dmg btw) and not needing to use brainpower to make a build that would work for your ship, or change the ship to acommodate your need to deal dmg in a cruiser.
Bad captain = bad ship, no matter what class...your case demonstrates this, a classic captain Kirk syndrom.
I wouldn't mind an increase in BA power, but as you can read from my previous post, that's just ludicrous. I agree with baudl. I never thought I would be saying that, but I agree with him. What you want is implausible, improbable, and just plain... ok, now I sound like everyone else who posted who is against you.

You're right, there needs to be a change, but not to that extent.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 239
10-08-2012, 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
I wouldn't mind an increase in BA power, but as you can read from my previous post, that's just ludicrous. I agree with baudl. I never thought I would be saying that, but I agree with him. What you want is implausible, improbable, and just plain... ok, now I sound like everyone else who posted who is against you.

You're right, there needs to be a change, but not to that extent.
i could also see beams deal more burst dmg than right now, but then the ability beam overload would become too potent. So you can't tweak around with this weapon without breaking other skills that correspond to it.

i could only see cruiser and sci vessels with +2 higher turnrate, so they may use DBB more conveniantly to do dmg instead of normal beams, if cruiser captain feel the need to deal more dmg.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,696
# 240
10-08-2012, 02:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by veraticus View Post
Base figures for a MkXII:
220 DPV
176 DPS

Base figures for a MkXII DHC:
384 DPV
256 DPS
I just pulled a calculator out thinking maybe we could raise beam damage a little bit without ruining the game (even on my new 'optimised' build) and found that we could give beam arrays an extra 25% damage which would bring them up to:

275 DPV
220 DPS

Which is still not game breaking or putting escorts out of a job, now even if all ships were to do uniform damage (which could never happen due to career and boff skills) all 4 ship types would still get played but they'd get played for fun and because an escorts get up close and pummel suits someones play style just as a cruisers sit at mid range and broadside suits someones play style, it's well known that sci ships have a harder time than the rest of us due to the games orientation towards damage but people still play them and whats more they ENJOY doing it.

But back to the subject at hand, beams could quite safely gain another 25% damage capability without breaking the game as after you add the drain of 6 beams firing at once it's still got nothing on DHCs as there is still a difference of:

109 DPV
36 DPS

And ok the DPS difference isn't much but for every BA volley the DHC gets 2 so it still balances out in favour of DHCs especially after you add the drain when firing as well and if need be shave a little FA off the BAs make it 225 deg and add an extra point of power drain.

I am up for debate on this so rather than having a go and saying stuff about it breaking the game, give the figures some constructive criticism and you know... maybe you could do some more calculations and perhaps come up with some better ones that are more agreeable to all of us.

P.S. Taking into account the point about Beam overload breaking as a result of such a change, just reduce it's bonus by 25% and that's problem solved

Last edited by adamkafei; 10-08-2012 at 02:22 AM.
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