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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 81
10-08-2012, 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
yeah, there are a ton of ways to kill someone without resorting to auto-wipe doffing.

SNB
Target Subsystem
Viral Matrix (sadly, good because of doffs)
Photonic Shockwave
Sci based power drains
TBR
Sensor Scan
Scramble

Combine a few of the listed abilities in the right amount, in the right place, at the right time. That's how to debuff someone through skill, not luck.

True, the abilities listed above may need a slight buff, but that is incoming in the form of reworked CDs. (let's hope they don't overdo it...)
Exactly and honestly I love that the best options all revolve around sci ships... this is working as it should be honestly. As much as all the "old guard" sci guys like Mai want to complain that sci is junk now... it really really isn't. You can't win games reliably with out a good sci... it just isn't over powered to the point of 5 man sci teams rolling everything anymore.

Frankly when people complain that sci needs buffed... there completely full of it...
Yes SOME sci skills could use some adjustment... and imo the easiest fix for sci resist issues is to simply reverse the scales on the resistance values on the skill tree... meaning you get more points the more you spend in resist... meaning 3 or 4 points into a resist isn't enough to neuter sci as it is now....

Anyway all I am saying is the sci that is working right now... is very effective at countering team heals. Every team needs 1-3 sci and preferably in a science ships... giving people to bring no sci at all and load tacs with skillless doffs instead... is just moving so far backwards its not even funny.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 879
# 82
10-08-2012, 01:14 AM
With the current state of the game, I completely agree Husanak.

That being said, there was a period lasting several months where any science vessel was a liability. An SP A-team would be three cruisers and two escorts. Now hardly anybody takes a cruiser as a support ship. There are a few reasons for this change:

-Most importantly, FAW went from never missing to receiving no benefit from [acc] modifiers. This change vastly diminished the damage dealing and spam clearing worth of cruisers. If FAW started never missing again we'd be fielding cruiser heavy teams the next day. In truth, cruisers are far too reactive to whatever Cryptic does with this one skill -- it should be a short term, high priority goal to get [acc] working properly and a long term goal to lower the dependence of cruisers on FAW in general. (Bort, are you listening in? Anything to add?)

-Next, the buff to transphasic torpedoes, tric mines, and the addition of the wide angle quantum torpedo launcher moderately (--greatly actually, if you know what you are doing) increased the damage potential of full kinetic builds. Cruisers still turn too slow to make good use of full kinetic, and a kinetic build is a complete waste on an escort, so this only benefited science vessels.

-Also, the inclusion of the Recluse and the Orb Weaver -- the later of which has now been superseded by the Wells -- has given healers and science captains their equivalent of the Bugship. The Wells is easily the best science ship, and the Recluse is easily the most capable main healer in the same way the Bugship is obviously so much better than other escorts. The Recluse in particular is a big slap in the face to cruisers because it fills the traditional eng/cruiser main healer role better. Although you can roll an engculse and make it work you're far better off with a scicluse -- The carrier isn't nearly as dependent on power levels and another subnuke is always a good thing. Engineers only ever made sense in cruisers, so this is also a big blow to the entire engineer career!

-Lastly, PvPers have figured out the few high level science powers left that still work well and have gained proficiency using them. VM and low aux TBR are certainly no CPB or Grav Well of old, but they are effective none-the-less when coordinated properly. Don't get me wrong, the commander level science powers are still severely underpowered to the point that you might even get more mileage out of the ensign sci powers. Science vessels are worth fielding again in spite of the current crop of high level debuffs, not because of them.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,628
# 83
10-08-2012, 01:28 AM
the entire systems team, and all the fail pvp'ers, need to read these last 2 posts 100 times.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 84
10-08-2012, 01:42 AM
I can see where the OP is coming from completely. Healing and resists are a little ridiculous in STO right now (especially when min-maxed with proper Aux management or exploited by a coordinated team).

That said, saying that subnuke DOffs are a solution to turtling is like saying that a hatchet wound to the neck is a solution for a headache. There's too much that's annoyingly random about them (like Husanak said, it's basically whoever gets the most or the best procs off first) and there isn't even the bare minimum of effort involved since it's just an on-hit effect.

I actually wouldn't even mind as much if it only applied to defensive buffs, but it applies to everything and it can drag fights out just as bad by virtue of the fact that people are incapable of properly using their offensive burst since a little gremlin on the wing is nicking all the buffs.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 85
10-08-2012, 02:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
I actually find myself astonished to agree with you on this point!

I've said it before, and been slapped silly for it, but teamwork in STO IS OP. Working together brings too much to the game. If you've even been in a PUGvPUG game with 2 people from a premade on one side, you'll know what I mean. 2 people working perfectly together can easily deal with a 5-man PUG, even if the PUG is made up of decent players (but not decent team-players).
This is less to do with the game engine and more to do with the fact that STO doesn't have a serious queueing system (WoW and certain flavors of DotA are also notoriously bad for this).

Ideally, the queueing system should pair 2s againsts 2s, 5s against 5s, 3s against 3s, full randoms against full randoms, etc. I understand some people are against this, but frankly I can't see any reason why and I'm a little suspicious about their motives (maybe it's just me but I don't get much out of steamrolling pugs).
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 264
# 86
10-08-2012, 04:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I can see where the OP is coming from completely. Healing and resists are a little ridiculous in STO right now (especially when min-maxed with proper Aux management or exploited by a coordinated team).

That said, saying that subnuke DOffs are a solution to turtling is like saying that a hatchet wound to the neck is a solution for a headache. There's too much that's annoyingly random about them (like Husanak said, it's basically whoever gets the most or the best procs off first) and there isn't even the bare minimum of effort involved since it's just an on-hit effect.

I actually wouldn't even mind as much if it only applied to defensive buffs, but it applies to everything and it can drag fights out just as bad by virtue of the fact that people are incapable of properly using their offensive burst since a little gremlin on the wing is nicking all the buffs.
Thank you... for some people it is hard to say ANYTHING negative about their favorite game. They don't see a problem because they don't experience the issue... since they admittedly utilize the abilities that I said were absolutely necessary...

Buff Stripping DOFF -is- a solution, like it or not, and I don't like it... and I also don't like the never-ending cascade of heals/buffs. It is a sad excuse of a band-aid for the issue. A target who unexpectedly has its' buffs stripped is going to pop very easily, and others who can never have their buffs stripped, (because a team simply doesn't have that ability,) will win every time.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 264
# 87
10-08-2012, 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
This is less to do with the game engine and more to do with the fact that STO doesn't have a serious queueing system (WoW and certain flavors of DotA are also notoriously bad for this).

Ideally, the queueing system should pair 2s againsts 2s, 5s against 5s, 3s against 3s, full randoms against full randoms, etc. I understand some people are against this, but frankly I can't see any reason why and I'm a little suspicious about their motives (maybe it's just me but I don't get much out of steamrolling pugs).
People who point out that team > PUG are just looking for something to say on here... it's like, "Really? No kidding..." It has nothing to do with the issues I'm pointing out, since an organized team, with a ton of heals/buffs going out on each side... the side who can strip buffs will win.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 264
# 88
10-08-2012, 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by husanakx View Post
Exactly and honestly I love that the best options all revolve around sci ships... this is working as it should be honestly. As much as all the "old guard" sci guys like Mai want to complain that sci is junk now... it really really isn't. You can't win games reliably with out a good sci... it just isn't over powered to the point of 5 man sci teams rolling everything anymore.

Frankly when people complain that sci needs buffed... there completely full of it...
Yes SOME sci skills could use some adjustment... and imo the easiest fix for sci resist issues is to simply reverse the scales on the resistance values on the skill tree... meaning you get more points the more you spend in resist... meaning 3 or 4 points into a resist isn't enough to neuter sci as it is now....

Anyway all I am saying is the sci that is working right now... is very effective at countering team heals. Every team needs 1-3 sci and preferably in a science ships... giving people to bring no sci at all and load tacs with skillless doffs instead... is just moving so far backwards its not even funny.
This guy is lost... he wants even MORE resist and has no idea what I'm talking about when I say unkillable targets... It's as if he wants to become more overpowered by offering solutions that will only benefit his team.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 264
# 89
10-08-2012, 04:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
With the current state of the game, I completely agree Husanak.

That being said, there was a period lasting several months where any science vessel was a liability. An SP A-team would be three cruisers and two escorts. Now hardly anybody takes a cruiser as a support ship. There are a few reasons for this change:

-Most importantly, FAW went from never missing to receiving no benefit from [acc] modifiers. This change vastly diminished the damage dealing and spam clearing worth of cruisers. If FAW started never missing again we'd be fielding cruiser heavy teams the next day. In truth, cruisers are far too reactive to whatever Cryptic does with this one skill -- it should be a short term, high priority goal to get [acc] working properly and a long term goal to lower the dependence of cruisers on FAW in general. (Bort, are you listening in? Anything to add?)

-Next, the buff to transphasic torpedoes, tric mines, and the addition of the wide angle quantum torpedo launcher moderately (--greatly actually, if you know what you are doing) increased the damage potential of full kinetic builds. Cruisers still turn too slow to make good use of full kinetic, and a kinetic build is a complete waste on an escort, so this only benefited science vessels.

-Also, the inclusion of the Recluse and the Orb Weaver -- the later of which has now been superseded by the Wells -- has given healers and science captains their equivalent of the Bugship. The Wells is easily the best science ship, and the Recluse is easily the most capable main healer in the same way the Bugship is obviously so much better than other escorts. The Recluse in particular is a big slap in the face to cruisers because it fills the traditional eng/cruiser main healer role better. Although you can roll an engculse and make it work you're far better off with a scicluse -- The carrier isn't nearly as dependent on power levels and another subnuke is always a good thing. Engineers only ever made sense in cruisers, so this is also a big blow to the entire engineer career!

-Lastly, PvPers have figured out the few high level science powers left that still work well and have gained proficiency using them. VM and low aux TBR are certainly no CPB or Grav Well of old, but they are effective none-the-less when coordinated properly. Don't get me wrong, the commander level science powers are still severely underpowered to the point that you might even get more mileage out of the ensign sci powers. Science vessels are worth fielding again in spite of the current crop of high level debuffs, not because of them.
You are correct on all of your points but it kind of derails what I have been saying about heals/mitigation being overpowered against teams who have ZERO way to deal with them... Forcing Sci down people's throats is not a good option and won't be conducive to getting many people into PVP.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 264
# 90
10-08-2012, 05:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
yeah, there are a ton of ways to kill someone without resorting to auto-wipe doffing.

SNB
Target Subsystem
Viral Matrix (sadly, good because of doffs)
Photonic Shockwave
Sci based power drains
TBR
Sensor Scan
Scramble

Combine a few of the listed abilities in the right amount, in the right place, at the right time. That's how to debuff someone through skill, not luck.

True, the abilities listed above may need a slight buff, but that is incoming in the form of reworked CDs. (let's hope they don't overdo it...)
All of those abilities are Sci... thereby still forcing Sci onto teams. As I said, there are no other options for other Captains available to get around the mitigation, and that's bad design. Except, of course, the grotesque buff stripping DOFF.
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