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# 11
10-07-2012, 11:55 PM
accuracy and elusive

2 space traits that do something. other space traits do almost nothing.

So 2 space traits = 4 space traits, as far as advantage gained goes.
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# 12
10-08-2012, 03:46 AM
In other words, these two traits are basically OP? How should they be nerfed to no be that OP any more? Down to 5% each? Something else?
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Last edited by sophlogimo; 10-08-2012 at 04:13 AM.
Captain
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# 13
10-08-2012, 04:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
In other words, these two traits are basically OP?
How can it be op? Difference between useful and not useful doesnt always mean op.

I have all my numerous toons with different space traits. If you dont have a couple of traits right, its not op to the point where it makes a game winning differece, but good enough to notice.
aka NazHuggyBear2

"No, there is no real problem with P2W in STO. Obviously, if you fight against someone with an equal level of skill in the game, better equipment will give you an edge. But usually, it is the skill level that determines the outcome, not the P2W." - Sprinkles
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# 14
10-08-2012, 04:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
In other words, these two traits are basically OP? How should they be nerfed to no be that OP any more? Down to 5% each? Something else?
Only if:

OP= does something
not OP= does nothing

because this is the situation atm. Accuracy and elusive gives barely noticeable advantage, while all other space traits give no measureable advantage. This is why I say that if you could choose 4 space traits, you should choose these two, and might as well leave the other two traits blank.

My suggestion would be to buff the heck out of all other space traits. They should all give a noticeable advantage, or else their existence is without purpose.
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# 15
10-08-2012, 05:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
My suggestion would be to buff the heck out of all other space traits. They should all give a noticeable advantage, or else their existence is without purpose.
Some might argue that everything should actually just give a minor advantage - traits, gear, etc - and that the outcome of battles should be based off of skill...

...some argue for noticeable advantages.
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# 16
10-08-2012, 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Some might argue that everything should actually just give a minor advantage - traits, gear, etc - and that the outcome of battles should be based off of skill...

...some argue for noticeable advantages.
So you think everyone should play on equal terms? Same ships, same skills, same abilities... Well, that doesn't sound like a game I would want to play. Sounds two-dimensional and flat.

Why minor advantages? Why not major? The greater the advantage, the better, as long as there are advantages available for everyone. Being forced to choose between advantages is one of the major skill requirements in all mmos. It's basically more than half the game. This is one of the main arenas where you can put your gameplay experience and skill to use, to make your ship better suited for the next match.

If you want a game where only your actual finger movements during combat decides the outcome, maybe a FPS game would be better suited? I for one prefer a more complex game. The more complex the game, the higher the skill requirement becomes, and the more you have to plan and think to be able to excel. If we had 50 space traits, all of them extremely powerful in their own way, choosing your skill, and playing your traits to your advantage would be an immense challenge!
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# 17
10-08-2012, 06:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
So you think everyone should play on equal terms? Same ships, same skills, same abilities... Well, that doesn't sound like a game I would want to play. Sounds two-dimensional and flat.

Why minor advantages? Why not major? The greater the advantage, the better, as long as there are advantages available for everyone. Being forced to choose between advantages is one of the major skill requirements in all mmos. It's basically more than half the game. This is one of the main arenas where you can put your gameplay experience and skill to use, to make your ship better suited for the next match.

If you want a game where only your actual finger movements during combat decides the outcome, maybe a FPS game would be better suited? I for one prefer a more complex game. The more complex the game, the higher the skill requirement becomes, and the more you have to plan and think to be able to excel. If we had 50 space traits, all of them extremely powerful in their own way, choosing your skill, and playing your traits to your advantage would be an immense challenge!
It's over-focused, imo. It caters to the min-max crowd. You're more likely to build a FotM two dimensional character because that's what's hawt at the moment.

If it's more about nuances - minor advantages - you're likely to see more diversity.

If the argument is for a plethora of major advantages that are balanced - you're still going to end up with cookie cutter builds. Because players are players - they will min/max, realize that even though some "things" are balanced on a spreadsheet... in actual play, there's going to be something that does better for what they're trying to do - and - things will go unused.

If things offer minor advantages - nuances - then the player's knowledge and ability to use that knowledge will shine through. Somebody might fly X ship instead of Y ship and actually beat Y ship instead of requiring Y ship to beat Y ship.

I've never been a fan of rock scissors paper. Player A's screwed because they brought rock and the other guy brought paper. But hey, they'll be okay as long as they face the guy that brought scissors.

How about while paper might be able to cover rock - rock's pretty damn tough and can smash through paper. Yeah, rock can smash scissors - but scissors can be pretty nimble and chisel away at rock. Yeah, scissors can cut paper - but paper's smart, can get in there, and jam up the scissors so they can't cut.

Yeah, I'm just not a fan of the standard rock scissors paper game...
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# 18
10-08-2012, 06:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
[...]
My suggestion would be to buff the heck out of all other space traits. They should all give a noticeable advantage, or else their existence is without purpose.
Okay, I have been innocently asking, but this is where I am coming from:

I have recently levelled a Gorn sci in a Varanus. Gorn are "handicapped" for space combat in a sense because they have three pre-set ground traits, leaving them only one space trait to select... but I made it a point to select another ground trait. So, that space-combat-specialized Gorn now has not a single space trait.

And yet, he does not seem to be all that outmatched in space PvP. This is good, as it makes the much-requested re-trait tokens much less needed, and does not ruin space combat for ground-trait-equipped toons.

My own impression is that the space traits, while they seem to be helping slightly, pale in significance vs all the other factors, like doffs, gear, skills, etc. The exception being, of course, the two traits Elusive and Accurate.

I have long been saying that everybody should have both 4 ground and 4 space traits. If that was the case, then slightly buffing the other space traits would certainly be the way to go, while not ruining the fun for more ground-oriented species like Gorn or even the 2-ground-trait native Klingons.

However, with the current setup that makes Aliens the best space combat people, because only they can select 4 space traits, buffing the space traits would probably just put all non-Aliens at a disadvantage.
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# 19
10-08-2012, 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
It's over-focused, imo. It caters to the min-max crowd. You're more likely to build a FotM two dimensional character because that's what's hawt at the moment.
but no... Strong traits are medecine against flavor of the month builds. Strong trais will make it profitable to go with your strengths, in spite of something being popular. Sure, if the FotM stays static for months and years, every new toon will end up with the same traits, but traits are usually picked on creation based on the current FotM, and hence be different every month (roughly).

The current situation is that all characters created by serious pvp'ers the last two years have the two useful traits. On top of that, the two cancel each other out, meaning that the only ones suffering are the pugs who didn't know these two traits were the only ones worth taking... :/


Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
I have long been saying that everybody should have both 4 ground and 4 space traits. If that was the case, then slightly buffing the other space traits would certainly be the way to go, while not ruining the fun for more ground-oriented species like Gorn or even the 2-ground-trait native Klingons.
I also have a Gorn, and I would be be positive to the devs locking the traits to 2-ground 2-space.
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# 20
10-08-2012, 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
[...]
I also have a Gorn, and I would be be positive to the devs locking the traits to 2-ground 2-space.
Problem with that is that it would force players who have 3 or 4 space traits to give something up, while just increasing the total number of traits to 8 with a hard-coded limit to 4 space and 4 ground would have people feel more like gaining something that way.

One might also think about disconnecting XP spent for ground and space alltogether, so that you don't sacrifice the one for the other. Ground and space are essentially two different games and should not compete with each other for character building resources.
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