Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,738
# 241
10-08-2012, 02:58 AM
The factors many of you calculator nerds arnt
Putting into your math make drastic changes
I'n space warfare

Speed fast verses slow

Maneuverability a lot verses a little

Engineer I'n a engineering ship

Saucer separation maneuverability increases
Really are a illusion because if your destroyed
You have it reattached with a 5 minute cool down
Your back to a 6 maneuverability

Engineer gets 1 buff to damage 34% it's fleet II with
A 5 minute cooldown

My Tac flying the same ship have 5 buffs to damage
On my phone can't check and be sure on that.but the
Damage increase from using my Tac I'n the same ship
Same layout is a huge increase I'n damage

The character needing damage increases are the
Engineer I'n his engineering ship.the need to be tied
To both so other classes using the improvements don't unbalance
The ships

My science character I'n her science ship cranks
Out more Dps than my engineer And can tank better
Too
The only thing the engineer can do better is extend
Shields and aux/sif

The engineer I'n his ship needs some serious
Upgrades and being a heal bot with a BB gun
That's slow un maneuverable
Isn't enough
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
Leva........Tactical.....Mailu KDF Sci

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 242
10-08-2012, 03:19 AM
That is exactly the response I asked to not have, we can't fix the Acc nerf so all we can do is to try to work around the lack of beam damage in general, now if you could come up with something that could help us in that regard I at least would very much appreciate it but like I said, complaining about the escorts primary defence doesn't help, the whole point of escorts being quick is that they really don't want to get hit, i agree with those who say they take more damage than they should for their damage output and I think that if an escort gets hit more than a few times in a few volleys it should hurt a lot and they should be forced to break combat if they value their ships but that's another discussion for another thread.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,940
# 243
10-08-2012, 03:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1 View Post
The factors many of you calculator nerds arnt
Putting into your math make drastic changes
I'n space warfare

Speed fast verses slow

Maneuverability a lot verses a little

Engineer I'n a engineering ship

Saucer separation maneuverability increases
Really are a illusion because if your destroyed
You have it reattached with a 5 minute cool down
Your back to a 6 maneuverability

Engineer gets 1 buff to damage 34% it's fleet II with
A 5 minute cooldown

My Tac flying the same ship have 5 buffs to damage
On my phone can't check and be sure on that.but the
Damage increase from using my Tac I'n the same ship
Same layout is a huge increase I'n damage

The character needing damage increases are the
Engineer I'n his engineering ship.the need to be tied
To both so other classes using the improvements don't unbalance
The ships

My science character I'n her science ship cranks
Out more Dps than my engineer And can tank better
Too
The only thing the engineer can do better is extend
Shields and aux/sif

The engineer I'n his ship needs some serious
Upgrades and being a heal bot with a BB gun
That's slow un maneuverable
Isn't enough
and what you don't include here, what we "calculator nerds" actually do is the far superior surviveability of an engi captain...combined with cruiser setup makes your saucer sep oddy a hard target to destroy. so the argument, that after you die you are stuck without it is the actual illusion, because you shouldn't die in this 5 minutes.

the actual 2 dmg buffs are nadion inversion...keeps power high while shooting multiple weapons
and the power increase skill, that adds manuverability through higher engine power, higher resistance on shields, higher weapon power = more dmg
(and i don't even know what you mean by fleet II...engineering fleet? then you are wrong. If you mean fleet support, there is no second version and it is a obsolete skill anyway...can't really be taken into account)

ofcourse your tac has 4 damage increase skills AP:A, go down fighting, fire on my mark and the tactical fleet buff...and no skill that adds to surviveability...thats intended you know.

your sci char does certainly not tank better, sci have 2 resistance buffs, but no actual heal. The engi has a resi buff, a shield heal which adds resi to shields, and a "ohh ****" instant omni heal.

so all your arguments are basically not true, or misunderstood. the engi is actually a heal bot and has a pure dmg buff (nadion inversion)
the ability to increase powerlevels makes the engi actually a good choice for any sci vessel, since higher aux means more CC and DMG through sci powers.

if you do not like to play an engi in a cruiser, don't do it. if you can't make it work don't expect nobody else can.
resently had an 1vs1 encounter with a tac in a regent...i was with my engi in a oddy starcruiser (the free one)
nobody got killed (not enough burst dmg obviously), but i did a 100k more dmg and 200k more healing, thats what higher powerlevels mean compared to short dmg buffs.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 244
10-08-2012, 03:40 AM
Why is it that all my ideas that have reasoning behind them and specifically ask to be modified where needed get ignored?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 245
10-08-2012, 05:38 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post

275 DPV
220 DPS
So why would Beam Arrays under this buffing still get 270 degree firing arc? How is that fair to the game?

Which is only a little below existing DBBs in damage {287DPV (229DPS)}.

Its not a fair fix at all.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 387
# 246
10-08-2012, 05:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
/yawn. Then, as an escort pilot, you simply outtank the damage of the cruiser (what is very easy) and wait until your abilities come back. Simply allocate energy to engine and shields, keep flying at maximum speed, stay in the back of the cruiser so only 4 beam arrays can target you. If the cruiser alpha strikes, use RSP1 or evasive manouvers, or brace for impact with 3 blue or purple DOs.
Right, the escort will use all those heal powers, then will be naked for almost a full minute. Even assuming the escort has TT up with 100% uptime, AND the escort has capped shield resistance all the time, a mere 2700 dps is enough to knock down the shields before the heal cycle starts over again. If you have a spike damage power, like say Beam Overload, you use it then, and you get some solid damage on to the hull. Now the escort uses it's ONE hull heal (since it is using Eng slots for Epwr Shields and RSP), and the cycle repeats, but each time, you get the escort a little lower on health. That's why it's a grind - a cruiser can slowly, slowly reduce an escort by just barely out-damaging it's healing - it might take 5 minutes to win, but the cruiser can do it.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 247
10-08-2012, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
So why would Beam Arrays under this buffing still get 270 degree firing arc? How is that fair to the game?

Which is only a little below existing DBBs in damage {287DPV (229DPS)}.

Its not a fair fix at all.
And this is not helpful either, I suggested also in the same post a slightly lower firing arc which says you are only looking at my suggested damage figures, DBBs are impractical on your average cruiser anyway due to their arc.

I also specifically asked that you should play with my figures to make them more viable if you feel that they aren't, I'm suggesting figures for people to debate, play with but more importantly making them work within the current game system, if you think the suggested damage is too high for the arc then by all means suggest a smaller damage figure and or a smaller arc, I'm not saying that cruisers should be as powerful as escorts, heck they aren't capable of it even with a tac at the helm, what I am suggesting is that we should raise their damage a little.

As for you asking how I think it's fair, you can get 4 DBBs on a ship so you can fire all of those off for more damage than 6 BAs whereas 6 BAs doing my suggested figures will still do less damage per beam (especially under the power drain of 6 beams rather than 4) but more (on both damage and drain) with all of them going, heck you could add a couple more points of power drain if you want (although that would likely negate the whole thing).

Basically what I did was put forth some figures, my calculations and my reasoning and then asked you lot to play with that and make it better for everyone

Last edited by adamkafei; 10-08-2012 at 06:01 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 248
10-08-2012, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
And this is not helpful either

I asked simply how you justify a high firing arc (over 90) on a weapon that will do only 15 DPV(9DPS) less damage than a DBB which has a 90 firing arc.

The only way to justify such a weapon is to give it the DBB 90fa at which point you've just redesigned to DBB, only slightly weaker. SO why have it it all?


I much prefer other ideas that don't try to make the lowest beam based weapon suddenly the best with out handicaps appropiate to the buffing.

The idea of a heavy Beam Array with a 90 firing arc, the DBBs being bumped to 200 firing arc with standard beam arrays remaining the same still seems best to me.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 249
10-08-2012, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
I asked simply how you justify a high firing arc (over 90) on a weapon that will do only 15 DPV(9DPS) less damage than a DBB which has a 90 firing arc.

The only way to justify such a weapon is to give it the DBB 90fa at which point you've just redesigned to DBB, only slightly weaker. SO why have it it all?


I much prefer other ideas that don't try to make the lowest beam based weapon suddenly the best with out handicaps appropiate to the buffing.

The idea of a heavy Beam Array with a 90 firing arc, the DBBs being bumped to 200 firing arc with standard beam arrays remaining the same still seems best to me.
Well I apologise for my opening comment on that, with college and this and other stuff I've been quite stressed. But i think that post energy drain my idea is still viable, Yes I think maybe the arc or 270 is a tad much or perhaps the drain a tad low, maybe make it 11 or 12 win line with the DHCs we're trying to compete with but to get a 200 deg FA to work broadsiding would need a lot of on the spot manoeuvrability which cruisers just don't have so I'm suggesting we use what we already have with slightly lower damage output, perhaps bring it down to 250-260 DPV and give it a 225-250 FA? putting it about half way between BA damage and FA and the DBB damage and your suggested FA for it.

how does that sound?
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 346
# 250
10-08-2012, 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Flekh is right. Cruisers aren't broken. Just used wrong. I never thought I would be saying this until last night when I finally broke down and got myself the Oddy 3 pack. Got in the tac oddy, put on saucer sep, and went for a shakedown cruise. A few stfs later and lots of MAJOR surprise on my part, I was taken. Cruisers can put out decent dps. I have proven this time and time again with my AC after I did some modifications to it's BOff layout and DOffs. I also changed my playstyle a little and stopped doing long range bombardment and closed in to around 4-6k. I also changed my positioning so that I could keep all my weapons on target. Basic things I should have done to begin with.

I re-applied this learning to the Odyssey Tac Cruiser, and then as soon as I hit saucer sep, it was insane. I was EASILY, and I say again EASILY maintaining 900-1100 per shot. PER SHOT. Even with all my arrays firing I never dropped below 700 per shot. And if I hit EPtW, I never dropped below 100 power (except once and that was because I got hit by a polaron proc) and with EPtW active I consistently was hitting 1000-1300 per shot (with AP:B and TT active, YES, THE TT MATTERS). Sufficed to say, I think my weapons power was around 160 with EPtW active, and around 140 without it. Throw in saucer sep it went up to 150 without EPtW, and with EPtW, 170. My dps was around 5k easiliy. EASILY. Which I find to be a mite distressing since before my DPS was only around 3500.

But flekh is right. Cruisers can put out some pretty heavy dps and still be tanky as balls. My oddy's shields almost never went down, even with saucer sep active, and when they did, the stupid thing just would not die (something about 50k hp with reinforced armor). So I will say that yes, if you don't get certain cruisers and just use the free ones, you will be a little weaker. But that's the name of the game. As was pointed out, P2W. I paid. And am now able to win a little better (and believe me, that 50 bucks hurt lol...). However the really amazing part that had me blown away was the fact I was able to put out those kinds of numbers and was STILL ABLE TO HEAL AND TANK. It's crazy. But true.

So it's not a learn to play really. Me saying that would probably make me throw up as I typed it. But it's more of a learn what is proven to work, and then change it and make it your own without losing the main "MAKES IT WORK" part. I did that. I looked up what worked, modified it to match me, and then used it. And it worked. And everyone who says the Oddy sucks, you can blow it out your rear, that thing is amazing.
Wow, never seen (or thought I'd see) that on this board.
First, ditching the immature font and now finally getting what we've been explaining all along? I'm impressed. Shame it took 20+ pages, but it's a start.

That's the thing: Cruisers can achieve ~75% the DPS of an Escort while retaining ~250% survivability; and then on the boards threads flourish labelling the Cruiser UP? Or the Escort OP? Makes no sense.
These threads always focus on part of the factors:
- whine about CRF3, conveniently forget ASIF3 (srsly, that thing is huge)
- whine about (and overinflate) the Defense bonus, conveniently forget Hull strength (example: my Bortas has just shy of 60k Hull. Could actually get more than 60k with another Deflector)
- whine about Arrays being weaker than DHCs, conveniently forget you can have 8 on Target at once, compared to only 4 DHCs
-...
Of course, when you remove all the factors that make Cruisers shine, they don't shine anymore.


Quote:
And this is not helpful either, I suggested also in the same post a slightly lower firing arc which says you are only looking at my suggested damage figures, DBBs are impractical on your average cruiser anyway due to their arc.

I also specifically asked that you should play with my figures to make them more viable if you feel that they aren't, I'm suggesting figures for people to debate, play with but more importantly making them work within the current game system, if you think the suggested damage is too high for the arc then by all means suggest a smaller damage figure and or a smaller arc, I'm not saying that cruisers should be as powerful as escorts, heck they aren't capable of it even with a tac at the helm, what I am suggesting is that we should raise their damage a little.
So, what you want are weapons with a lower firing arc than Arrays but higher than DBBs and preferably access to CRF&CSV?

Those exist.
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