Go Back   Star Trek Online > Information and Discussion > Ten Forward
Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,256
# 11
10-07-2012, 09:38 PM
Daniels was in the past when the blast happened....?
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,341
# 12
10-08-2012, 05:33 AM
We already know that there are millions of parallel Star Trek universes. Going into the past and changing things merely creates another one. It will not affect the actual future (or present).

However, once you have entered a different universe, the only reliable way to get "home" is to set things straight again so they develop roughly in the way that your own universe did, so when you go "back" into the future, this new universe won't differ too much from the old.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Promote what you love, instead of bashing what you hate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...lM_skuv4#t=584
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,630
# 13
10-08-2012, 07:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusdkane View Post
Exactly


Perhaps she was fated to step in front of a bus the week after, so her temporal relocation would have had no impact on the timeline...
She still would have had an impact - she would have sparked an investigation, probably cost a bus driver his job or license, raised the fleet insurance on the buses, etc. But she was already pulled out of the timeline - she had no impact because she was never there, and any impact she had already happened.


Quote:
Sisko did not kill Gabriel Bell...
Bell died due to Sisko's presence in the timeline. If you want to debate the distinction with Temporal Investigations be my guest.


Quote:
'Spectacular battle'? The Borg sphere was firing consistently at the surface. The Enterprise-E fired four quantum torpedoes and the sphere exploded... That's hardly 'spectacular'
You have to consider that the ships both should have been visible to an observer (and easily detected on military or space program sensors), the explosion would have been extremely visible, and as for spectacular, the yield of the weapons involved would have far exceeded the yield of any nuclear weapons Earth was suggested to possess - a photon torpedo already approximates the yield of the largest nuclear weapon ever used. Quantum torpedo yield is never established in canon, but exceeds that.


Quote:
??
Never happened...
Fragments from the sphere made it through the atmosphere following it's destruction, but it was hardly a re-entry and crash landing...
The fragments that survived the landing were large enough to establish the shape and size of the ship. They extended many meters into the air and the debris field spread for kilometers. The large chunk we saw would on its own be one of the largest objects to enter Earth's atmosphere in recorded history, and the largest since photography became so ubiquitous. For some comparison, an object less than a meter across, orders of magnitude lower in mass, recently entered the atmosphere near England and at least fifty separate videos captured its passing.

Quote:
Worf clearly reported that the moon's gravitational field had obscured the Enterprise's warp signature from the T'Plana-Hath's sensors, no mystery there... If the T'Plana-Hath's sensors had detected anything, there would have been nothing remaining to investigate. Vulcans of the time would have no belief in time travel, so their logic would have dictated that the sensors had either picked up a subspace echo from the Phoenix's test flight, or that the sensor array had briefly malfunctioned and created an anomalous reading...
Vulcans were also able to detect the passing of a ship, not just its presence. Not knowing it departed into the future doesn't change the fact that they should have detected its prior presence in low orbit. Not to mention debris - from the sphere's explosion, battle damage to both craft, from the Enterprise's destroyed deflector, a couple Borg/Borg body parts that drifted off into independent orbits, not to mention any other objects that got drawn through along with the Sphere and Enterprise - they were coming out of a battlezone with multiple destroyed ships and it's clearly possible for objects outside of the sphere to cross with it. Not believing in time travel would only mean they'd never figure out what happened, they'd still have the mystery.

Last edited by hevach; 10-08-2012 at 07:52 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 688
# 14
10-08-2012, 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
We already know that there are millions of parallel Star Trek universes. Going into the past and changing things merely creates another one. It will not affect the actual future (or present).

However, once you have entered a different universe, the only reliable way to get "home" is to set things straight again so they develop roughly in the way that your own universe did, so when you go "back" into the future, this new universe won't differ too much from the old.
That creates a paradox all of its own though. Time travel 101 says you go back in time, you make a change, and time continues along a different path. You're stuck following that path to whatever future it leads to. That does indeed mean that for you to get back home (or rather, reach a future point in the new timeline that looks like home) you have to undo the alterations, either by going back further or mitigating the consequences.

You can't however actually ever return to your original timeline. (Other than (maybe) by sidestepping the way the Mirror Universe does. The effects of which on spacetime I hesitate to guess at.)

Worse yet, if time in this new timeline plays out as it should, and you hop forward to your departure date, you'll find that in this new timeline, another version of you was born and is living your life. Now if this universe is similar enough, this version of you will have gone back in time to repeat the whole mess before, and you'd be none the wiser.

In your original timeline, however, if you were the 'first' to go back in time, no earlier alternate version of you is available to replace you.

This also means that when the Borg went back in time to assimilate Earth, the timeline they departed continued unchanged. All the Starfleet survivors would have seen was the disappearance of the Borg cube and the Enterprise. The only reason the Enterprise was able to see what the Borg were setting out to (rather pointlessly) do is because it was caught in the sphere's temporal wake and moving into the new timeline with it. So unless Borg quantum-compute across timelines, the queen's trip to the good old days would have had no benefits for the collective she left behind, only for a new one.

Same deal with Janeway going back cause oh dear oh dear, poor little Seven died and Chuckles didn't take it so well and oh, Tuvok lost his marbles. All these things still happened. These people still go on without her. Unchanged. She's just created another timeline, for another version of herself and these other people, where these things could be avoided.

So basically, if you go back in time to try to do anything, say something positive, like prevent suffering or something else bad from happening, it never works. The damage in timeline you originate from is done and will always continue to exist. You can create a new timeline for you to live in where everything is all sunshine and butterflies, but it changes nothing for the people you left back home. As far as altruism is concerned, it's an exercise in futility. No one loses or benefits but you. The people in the new timeline didn't even exist until now.

Problem with this theory is though the clash of mathematics and physics. Mathematics likes to pretend there's such a thing as infinite anything. Physics as far as I know, really doesn't embrace that quite so eagerly. We really know of nothing that's infinite. Space isn't even infinite. So why would time be? Why should we assume that it is? And what supports all these timelines? If you boil everything down to its most basic elements, all matter and energy can reduced to information. Information needs to be stored. The obvious choice is spacetime. Now it could very well be that there is a massive amount of spacetime, more than enough to hold the entire history, down to subatomic events, of the universe up to and from now on, trillions to the trillionth power times over. But if spacetime is anything short of infinite, what happens when the universe's harddrive is full? With every new timeline created, afterall, the amount of storage medium remaining for future events is reduced. Going from one timeline to two halves it. We're also not just dealing with Earth here, or Trek races, but also races that live in other galaxies, civilizations that have already fallen, or may still need to come into existence. If the people in both timeline one and timeline two keep travelling through time, the number of timelines is going to keep increasing, exponentially, until finally...

Well, as far as Daniels knows the universe could crash next Wednesday. (We know it's at least going to make it into the 31st century.) So for me the question really isn't, how does the Federation survive timetravel. How does anything?

Remember, manipulate time with moderation.
Reave

Last edited by hrisvalar; 10-08-2012 at 08:18 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1
# 15
03-11-2013, 08:01 PM
I'm sorry to post on this after 5 months of inactivity, but I just saw this, and hrisvalar's thesis is outstanding. That had never occurred to me before, and helps to explain a key inconsistency in time travel as seen on Star Trek (well, aside from the explanation that that's just what the writer wanted to make the show work better, of course). Namely, why are some people/events protected by grandfather paradoxes, and others aren't? On the one hand, the Defiant colony, Old Molly O'Brien, etc., instantly disappear when their existence can't logically occur given changes made to the past. On the other hand, Alternate Tashar Yar and Spock Prime survive when events transpire that should "destroy" their timelines--and themselves included. They don't disappear: Alternate Tasha goes on to have Sela, and Spock Prime gets to chill in the epilogue of the new movie. This looks like to be the destructive kind of time travel hrisvalar is talking about. Again, well done.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,775
# 16
03-12-2013, 08:06 AM
Firstly, apoloies for missing your post previously, it was not my intention to ignore it

Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
She still would have had an impact - she would have sparked an investigation, probably cost a bus driver his job or license, raised the fleet insurance on the buses, etc. But she was already pulled out of the timeline - she had no impact because she was never there, and any impact she had already happened.
Ahh, I see what you mean, impacting by omission...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
You have to consider that the ships both should have been visible to an observer (and easily detected on military or space program sensors), the explosion would have been extremely visible
Got to disagree on 'extremely visible'... Yes, the sphere was visible to the naked eye, but it was only because Lily happened to be looking in that direction, there weren't any denizens of the town running around prior to the attack pointing and staring... As for the military or space programs, there probably weren't any, as Riker noted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
and as for spectacular, the yield of the weapons involved would have far exceeded the yield of any nuclear weapons Earth was suggested to possess - a photon torpedo already approximates the yield of the largest nuclear weapon ever used. Quantum torpedo yield is never established in canon, but exceeds that.
As above yes, the explosion was probably visible if someone was looking directly at it... It might've been enough for people to think 'What was that?" but then carry on with their business... (which in North America, would have likely been sleeping or having evening meals...) I doubt anyone in the UK, for example, would have seen it... What I was meaning by 'not spectacular', was that it was hardly as if the sphere and the Enterprise were fighting in the same way as which the Enterprise had been fighting the cube, with phasers and torpedoes everywhere

Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
The fragments that survived the landing were large enough to establish the shape and size of the ship. They extended many meters into the air and the debris field spread for kilometers. The large chunk we saw would on its own be one of the largest objects to enter Earth's atmosphere in recorded history, and the largest since photography became so ubiquitous. For some comparison, an object less than a meter across, orders of magnitude lower in mass, recently entered the atmosphere near England and at least fifty separate videos captured its passing.
Yes, that is true, as with the recent events in Russia as well, but, I'm not sure how many people at that time would have had access to handheld cameras etc... I'm sure there might have been some observers, but likely none who thought it anything more than a damaged satellite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
Vulcans were also able to detect the passing of a ship, not just its presence.
Where they though? Would the ship's sensors have been sensitive enough to do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
Not to mention debris - from the sphere's explosion, battle damage to both craft, from the Enterprise's destroyed deflector, a couple Borg/Borg body parts that drifted off into independent orbits, not to mention any other objects that got drawn through along with the Sphere and Enterprise - they were coming out of a battlezone with multiple destroyed ships and it's clearly possible for objects outside of the sphere to cross with it. Not believing in time travel would only mean they'd never figure out what happened, they'd still have the mystery.
Hmm, I guess that's possible...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,332
Ensign
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 6
# 18
03-20-2013, 11:09 PM
I dont know if this has been said or not but would it be possible to go back in time, kill yourself and take your place and still manage to exist? Did't O'Brien do something similar to this?
"Letting people fly what they like" is what has turned Star Trek Online from a continuation of the Star Trek world into a Star Trek theme park where ships are flown with no rhyme or reason.
Hell I get into so many groups with Jem'hadar ships they might as well rename this to Dominion Online.
Ensign
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12
# 19
03-21-2013, 12:25 AM
...because there is no such thing as the Star Trek universe.

Time to get out of your parent's basement and go meet some girls.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,360
# 20
03-21-2013, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasfattiest View Post
...because there is no such thing as the Star Trek universe.

Time to get out of your parent's basement and go meet some girls.
Interesting statement - from someone who takes the time to register for this game, come into the forums, and read at least until finding this thread.

You know, you can't deny your own inner nerd just by calling someone else out on their nerdiness. Embrace it! Be proud of who you are! Come out of the locker you were stuffed into!
-------------------------------------------
I'm old enough not to care too much about what you think of me --
But I'm young enough to remember the future, the way things ought to be...

- Rush, "Cut To the Chase", Counterparts
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:48 PM.