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Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,966
# 11
10-08-2012, 08:03 AM
So I read the part about "these were done on ships with no capacity boosting consoles and 9 to the shield hitpoint skill tree skill".

Emphasis mine.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,667
# 12
10-08-2012, 09:43 AM
Thanks Dontdrunkimshoot. That such a curious bonus exists wouldn't cross my mind.
Actually it seems to me they put a modifier they later forgot about or that it is an inside joke by some dev with lots of free time (and that's "rolling on the floor laughing", literally).

What's a positive, even the lowest shield mods found (measured with KHG shields) are still far superior to those listed.

I wonder if the Borg shield could get any use with those lower tier retrofits. After all, it isn't that bad if you're not being fired at with hight bursts.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix: Bring in the Allegiance class
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia: Design that long overdue Tier 5 C-Store Raptor
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var: Give us Asylums for Romulans

Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,420
# 13
10-08-2012, 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
Were these measurements done with or without field gens equipped?
no field gens on any of those ships when i recorded their hitpoints

Quote:
Originally Posted by sophlogimo View Post
So I read the part about "these were done on ships with no capacity boosting consoles and 9 to the shield hitpoint skill tree skill".

Emphasis mine.
would have had to go to tribble and strip that in a respec, but since the skill points didn't effect the mod one way or the other on the fleet vorcha, i take it that those skill tree modifier has no effect on what appears to be the shield mod, and nothing to do with the hidden bonus curve on those other ships.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,936
# 14
10-08-2012, 01:22 PM
Your not taking your skill mod into consideration which is why it 'appears' curved but it is not.

Mk Xii KHG per facing shows 10961 which just happens to be 8431*1.3, or your skill mod on the base vorcha. So we know now the amount shown in dock or tooltip on the vorcha is the base shield amount and we can avoid doing math with it again. This is the list with skill mod.

KHG = 10961
Omega = 8137
Borg = 6825

Now lets take a look at the Fleet Ktinga. .94 mod, it applies to the skill mod so we can actually ignore that part of the math.

With the listed shield mod applied with skill mod would be
KHG = 10303
Omega = 7649
Borg = 6415

So the first number is what it would be without the hidden bonus, second number is the amount you really get.
KHG = 10303 / 11780
Omega = 7649 / 9071
Borg = 6415 / 7810

Now what could we do to the first number with this myserious hidden mechanic to make it the second?
Add the flat bonus of roughly 1477 to 1395. Reason that the number is not exact is likely due to rounding in my math somewhere or an accolade that does effect it or even if your skill bonus changed by equipping a different deflector. There is also the possibility that the flat bonus scales with mark level of the shield but I did not see that in my previous original testing.

Last edited by bareel; 10-08-2012 at 01:49 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,420
# 15
10-08-2012, 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Your not taking your skill mod into consideration which is why it 'appears' curved but it is not.
for proboly the 5th time, the skill mod did not give the fleet vorcha a curve at all. if it was what was causing the apparent curves on the ktinga and somraw, it would have effected the fleet vorcha as well.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,246
# 16
10-08-2012, 01:39 PM
It almost feels like the skill tree and ship modifiers would normally stack with diminishing return when shield modifier is over 1, no Diminishing returns at 1 and the opposite of diminishing returns when under 1. and the stacking diminishing/bonus is directly effected by its distance from 1.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,936
# 17
10-08-2012, 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
for proboly the 5th time, the skill mod did not give the fleet vorcha a curve at all. if it was what was causing the apparent curves on the ktinga and somraw, it would have effected the fleet vorcha as well.
Because the fleet vorcha is a mod of a lvl 40 ship. It's shield mod is the same as the other fleet ships and does not get a flat bonus, only the retrofits of the lower tier ships do.

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=357641

Is where I show my original testing.

Last edited by bareel; 10-08-2012 at 01:51 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,420
# 18
10-08-2012, 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
Because the fleet vorcha is a mod of a lvl 40 ship. It's shield mod is the same as the other fleet ships and does not get a flat bonus, only the retrofits of the lower tier ships do.

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=357641

Is where I show my original testing.
i started off by saying things are different between level 40 and up fleet ships and everything below. those level 40 ships ONLY have thier listed shield mod with nothing else hidden, curved or flat.

when i took the base line off the vorcha R with with a captain that had 9 to shield capacity skill, and based all other measurements off that baseline, the skillpoints invested became a non factor.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,936
# 19
10-08-2012, 02:21 PM
I'm going to try to explain this as simply as I can.

Standard Shield Strength Formula
((Base * Skill Modifier) + (Base * Console Modifier) + Base) * Ship Modifier
-Base is from the shield you equip
-Skill Modifier at 99 shield system skill is .3

Fleet Retrofit Shield Formula
(((Base * Skill Modifier) + (Base * Console Modifier) + Base) * Ship Modifier) + Flat Bonus

If you equip something that increases either the skill modifier, or the console modifier you will notice that their % increase is different between the fleet retrofits and all other ships. The only way to account for that is a flat bonus at the end of the formula.

For example, if you equipped a blue Mk 11 console to the Vorcha it would gain 13.5% (roughly) shield strength. Because it scales with the ship shield modifier it will grant that amount to every single ship you fly, EXCEPT the fleet retrofits. On those you would only gain roughly an 11% increase because it, and the skill bonus, do not effect the Flat Bonus that only they get.

That is why the skill bonus does matter for the math. The flat bonus that ONLY the new retrofit ships have is not effected by it.

To compare it to something else. Some boff abilities that effect weapons do not effect the bonus damage that the weapons gain from tac consoles. Hence why some boff abilities are better than others by a large amount on an escort vs a cruiser. It all depends on where in the formula those bonuses are added and where you put the multiplication signs at.

Were all your tests done with no deflector on the ships?

Last edited by bareel; 10-08-2012 at 02:28 PM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,420
# 20
10-08-2012, 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bareel View Post
I'm going to try to explain this as simply as I can.

Standard Shield Strength Formula
((Base * Skill Modifier) + (Base * Console Modifier) + Base) * Ship Modifier
-Base is from the shield you equip
-Skill Modifier at 99 shield system skill is .3

Fleet Retrofit Shield Formula
(((Base * Skill Modifier) + (Base * Console Modifier) + Base) * Ship Modifier) + Flat Bonus

If you equip something that increases either the skill modifier, or the console modifier you will notice that their % increase is different between the fleet retrofits and all other ships. The only way to account for that is a flat bonus at the end of the formula.

For example, if you equipped a blue Mk 11 console to the Vorcha it would gain 13.5% (roughly) shield strength. Because it scales with the ship shield modifier it will grant that amount to every single ship you fly, EXCEPT the fleet retrofits. On those you would only gain roughly an 11% increase because it, and the skill bonus, do not effect the Flat Bonus that only they get.

That is why the skill bonus does matter for the math. The flat bonus that ONLY the new retrofit ships have is not effected by it.

To compare it to something else. Some boff abilities that effect weapons do not effect the bonus damage that the weapons gain from tac consoles. Hence why some boff abilities are better than others by a large amount on an escort vs a cruiser. It all depends on where in the formula those bonuses are added and where you put the multiplication signs at.

Were all your tests done with no deflector on the ships?
so your saying these sub tier 5 fleet ships just have a flat +1000 (just a random number) or so hitpoints to go with their worse mod? you may be on to something here, that would make it seemed curved in this case. is that +flat effected by the listed mod? is it independent of that?

im really starting to hate these fleet ship shields. for the life of me i don't know why they wouldn't advertise the bonus shields, that would be an incentive to buy one. or oh i don't know, give them better shield mods without this confusing extra!?

the deflector i had on was ether borg or omega, nether effects shield capacity skill
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
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