Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 355
I'm curious if players have any interest in seeing some Mid-Size hybrid style ships at max level? I know I would like to see some.

If you think about it, we seem to be severely lacking in these options, and the options we do have, are all very specialized or unique looking, which not everyone appreciates those heavily unique looks.

Let's consider modern Naval Vessels for a moment.

Aircraft Carrier (CV)
Battleship (BB)
Submarine (SS*N)
Heavy Cruisers-Missle Cruisers (CA)
Light Cruisers (CL)
Destroyers (DD)


If we were to lump STO's Admiral Level (Rear-Vice) vessels into categories as listed above, in terms of size classifications, it might be as follows:

Carrier: Atrox
Battleship: Odyssey, Sovereign*, Galaxy*, Nebula
Submarine: Luna, Prometheus, Excelsior
Heavy Cruisers: None
Light Cruisers: Armitage, Intrepid*
Destroyers: Defiant*, Blockade Escort

* = Includes all variations thereof

So what's the point? The point is, we don't have many choices in the Mid-Size vessels, and in the Mid-Small size vessels, we don't have much variation. In the step up from Mid-Size, all the ships have very distinguished looks, that if you aren't a fan of those particular ships, you're kinda out of luck.

In the Battleship size category, we have all kinds of choices. Sovies, Galaxies, the new Oddy, plus the several distinct looks that can be achieved via Cryptic's own designs for 2409.

In the Submarine size category, you have 3 ships. One has a funky sensor dome, and nacelles that hang underneath it like legs on a duck (Luna), you have a 4 nacelle ship (Prometheus) and you have an antique (Exclesior).

Getting into the Light Cruisers, if you weren't a fan of Voyager, and not a fan of that single scene in First Contact where you see the Akira, you are really out of luck.

And for the Destroyers, you get Jet aircraft looking ships, or cheeseboxes (Defiant).

Can we start getting some new designs and new visual options, in the Mid-Size category? You know, I like the looks of the Sovereign ok, but I don't want the size of a Sovereign. Is it simply not possible to create a ship, which is about the size of a Prometheus or an Intrepid, but having a similar, but unique style to that of a Sovereign?

What I'm getting at is while I understand people want their canon, seen on the TV screen for 4.21568 seconds in Episode 24, Season 3 of <insert Trek Show here>, is it possible to get back to the whole "It's 2409, this is the future of Star Trek" concept, and get some entirely new designs? Like you did with the Star Cruisers and such at launch?

Let's get some variation and some choices at the upper levels! More mid-size ships, in a variety of styles and builds.

This is something I might like to fly:

Mid Size Border Patrol Cruiser

Length: 415 Meters (same as Prometheus)

Configuration: Vanguard Saucer, scaled down by 50-75%, with an honest to God neck section, like the Excelsior, but not as upright, and 2 swept-back nacelles, like a Sovereign, blended together in a whole new 2409 style.

Hull: 32000

Turn Rate: 11 deg/sec

Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft

Consoles: 3 Eng, 2 Sci, 4 Tac

Bridge Officers:

Cmdr Tac
Lt Cmdr Eng
Lt Tac
Lt Eng
Ens Sci


What makes this ship unique? First of all, it has the style of a cruiser, with 2 nacelles instead of 4 like the Prometheus, without the size and the mass of a Sovereign or Galaxy. You can actually turn this boat, giving you some tactical options. But, if you look at the Hull, while you might be a bit stronger than an Escort or a Science Vessel, you aren't as strong as a battleship, so you need to be cautious. Also, you need to pick your science ability carefully, because you only get one.

Think of this as kind of a "Light Beam Boat" with enough turn rate that you could make use of some dual beam banks for your approach shot before going into your circle formation of broadsides. You get a little bit of the benefit of escorts (reduced turn rate) at the sacrafice of reduced hull, without having to fly a science ship.

I think of this as the kind of ship Starfleet might put out on the border, while the big ships are off fighting the war. It's tough, it can fight, it's just not as big as the capital ships.

Alternatively, you could open up the potential for some other hybrid crossovers. Mid size ships with a Sci/Tac focus, smaller Frigate sized Science ships with a Sci/Eng focus, etc. Lots of possibilities. Heck, alot of people have been wanting a T5 Miranda. Why not build a brand new 2409 type Miranda, in about the size of the Cheyenne class, to be the succsessor to the Miranda, with an Eng/Sci focus?

Plus, if this ship was given a whole new, never before seen look, you could have a launch event surrounding it, just like we had for the Odyssey, which means we could revisit Utopia Planitia.

This is the idea. New ships, new specs, in varying sizes. Let's have some choices Cryptic!
The account formerly known as C_Carmichael
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack. I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,449
# 2
10-08-2012, 06:59 PM
This is what the Criuser is suppose to be used for multi role ship and not all the things you are posting.That is more like Sapce Navey which Starfleet Battles is like.
Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
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Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 355
# 3
10-09-2012, 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by age03 View Post
This is what the Criuser is suppose to be used for multi role ship and not all the things you are posting.That is more like Sapce Navey which Starfleet Battles is like.
So you are implying that cruisers were meant to be massive ships and Starfleet only values massive, slow turning battleships, so that's the only ship they make?

What I'm asking for is the addition of some mid-sized ships. Sure, we currently have some very limited choices at Vice Admiral in the mid-sized category, but I think we could use some more.

It would be nice if players could have a bit more choice and more options for what they end up flying.
The account formerly known as C_Carmichael
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack. I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 931
# 4
10-09-2012, 12:01 PM
In the "classic forum vein":

What you're asking for kinda sounds like the Klingon Cruisers, more maneuverable less hull. Guess where you should start spending your time... Heck, you can even put DHCs on the Klingon cruisers instead of being limited to DBBs...

Personally, I'm not up for these ships. Escort weapons on an escort/cruiser hull with cruiser BOffs/consoles almost screams "pick the best of everything for my personal OP ship". Did I miss the part where you asked for the science ship's shield modifiers in there?

If we were to do "mid sized" ships (almost sounds like a Chevy Malibu in here), I'd be inclined to take a science ship, trade the shield modifier in for more hull, trade the integrated subsystem targetting out in favor of a 4th forward weapons emplacement (yeah, it's escort-level, but I don't necessarily want cruiser-level), and go from there...
Yes, I'm going here. Iconic / "hero" ships, I'm talking Galaxy/Defiant/Intrepid here you TNG-era fans, get a T6 version, then ALL the hero ships (Connie, Miranda, NX, etc.) need one too. I'm a ToS fan, and proud of it. This is a themepark, let me enjoy my ride or none of us deserve one...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,333
# 5
10-09-2012, 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccarmichael07 View Post
I'm curious if players have any interest in seeing some Mid-Size hybrid style ships at max level? I know I would like to see some.

If you think about it, we seem to be severely lacking in these options, and the options we do have, are all very specialized or unique looking, which not everyone appreciates those heavily unique looks.

Let's consider modern Naval Vessels for a moment.

Aircraft Carrier (CV)
Battleship (BB)
Submarine (SS*N)
Heavy Cruisers-Missle Cruisers (CA)
Light Cruisers (CL)
Destroyers (DD)


If we were to lump STO's Admiral Level (Rear-Vice) vessels into categories as listed above, in terms of size classifications, it might be as follows:

Carrier: Atrox
Battleship: Odyssey, Sovereign*, Galaxy*, Nebula
Submarine: Luna, Prometheus, Excelsior
Heavy Cruisers: None
Light Cruisers: Armitage, Intrepid*
Destroyers: Defiant*, Blockade Escort

* = Includes all variations thereof

So what's the point? The point is, we don't have many choices in the Mid-Size vessels, and in the Mid-Small size vessels, we don't have much variation. In the step up from Mid-Size, all the ships have very distinguished looks, that if you aren't a fan of those particular ships, you're kinda out of luck.

In the Battleship size category, we have all kinds of choices. Sovies, Galaxies, the new Oddy, plus the several distinct looks that can be achieved via Cryptic's own designs for 2409.

In the Submarine size category, you have 3 ships. One has a funky sensor dome, and nacelles that hang underneath it like legs on a duck (Luna), you have a 4 nacelle ship (Prometheus) and you have an antique (Exclesior).

Getting into the Light Cruisers, if you weren't a fan of Voyager, and not a fan of that single scene in First Contact where you see the Akira, you are really out of luck.

And for the Destroyers, you get Jet aircraft looking ships, or cheeseboxes (Defiant).

Can we start getting some new designs and new visual options, in the Mid-Size category? You know, I like the looks of the Sovereign ok, but I don't want the size of a Sovereign. Is it simply not possible to create a ship, which is about the size of a Prometheus or an Intrepid, but having a similar, but unique style to that of a Sovereign?

What I'm getting at is while I understand people want their canon, seen on the TV screen for 4.21568 seconds in Episode 24, Season 3 of <insert Trek Show here>, is it possible to get back to the whole "It's 2409, this is the future of Star Trek" concept, and get some entirely new designs? Like you did with the Star Cruisers and such at launch?

Let's get some variation and some choices at the upper levels! More mid-size ships, in a variety of styles and builds.

This is something I might like to fly:

Mid Size Border Patrol Cruiser

Length: 415 Meters (same as Prometheus)

Configuration: Vanguard Saucer, scaled down by 50-75%, with an honest to God neck section, like the Excelsior, but not as upright, and 2 swept-back nacelles, like a Sovereign, blended together in a whole new 2409 style.

Hull: 32000

Turn Rate: 11 deg/sec

Weapons: 4 Fore, 3 Aft

Consoles: 3 Eng, 2 Sci, 4 Tac

Bridge Officers:

Cmdr Tac
Lt Cmdr Eng
Lt Tac
Lt Eng
Ens Sci


What makes this ship unique? First of all, it has the style of a cruiser, with 2 nacelles instead of 4 like the Prometheus, without the size and the mass of a Sovereign or Galaxy. You can actually turn this boat, giving you some tactical options. But, if you look at the Hull, while you might be a bit stronger than an Escort or a Science Vessel, you aren't as strong as a battleship, so you need to be cautious. Also, you need to pick your science ability carefully, because you only get one.

Think of this as kind of a "Light Beam Boat" with enough turn rate that you could make use of some dual beam banks for your approach shot before going into your circle formation of broadsides. You get a little bit of the benefit of escorts (reduced turn rate) at the sacrafice of reduced hull, without having to fly a science ship.

I think of this as the kind of ship Starfleet might put out on the border, while the big ships are off fighting the war. It's tough, it can fight, it's just not as big as the capital ships.

Alternatively, you could open up the potential for some other hybrid crossovers. Mid size ships with a Sci/Tac focus, smaller Frigate sized Science ships with a Sci/Eng focus, etc. Lots of possibilities. Heck, alot of people have been wanting a T5 Miranda. Why not build a brand new 2409 type Miranda, in about the size of the Cheyenne class, to be the succsessor to the Miranda, with an Eng/Sci focus?

Plus, if this ship was given a whole new, never before seen look, you could have a launch event surrounding it, just like we had for the Odyssey, which means we could revisit Utopia Planitia.

This is the idea. New ships, new specs, in varying sizes. Let's have some choices Cryptic!
First off, the Excelsior is a Heavy Cruiser (not a submarine, how do you get any non cloaker as a sub?)

And most of the stats you suggested for your new design parallel the Armitage class.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 355
# 6
10-09-2012, 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dareau View Post
In the "classic forum vein":

What you're asking for kinda sounds like the Klingon Cruisers, more maneuverable less hull. Guess where you should start spending your time... Heck, you can even put DHCs on the Klingon cruisers instead of being limited to DBBs...

Personally, I'm not up for these ships. Escort weapons on an escort/cruiser hull with cruiser BOffs/consoles almost screams "pick the best of everything for my personal OP ship". Did I miss the part where you asked for the science ship's shield modifiers in there?

If we were to do "mid sized" ships (almost sounds like a Chevy Malibu in here), I'd be inclined to take a science ship, trade the shield modifier in for more hull, trade the integrated subsystem targetting out in favor of a 4th forward weapons emplacement (yeah, it's escort-level, but I don't necessarily want cruiser-level), and go from there...
Escort Weapons on an Escort/Cruiser hull? Did I mention cannons, dual cannons or DHC in my specifications? I'm pretty sure I only mentioned Dual Beam Banks.

As for "personal OP ship" this particular spec is not OP. The hull is 2,000 HP higher than a VA Escort, and 7,000 LESS than a VA cruiser. Meanwhile, the turn rate, while higher than current cruisers, is still less than both escorts and science vessels, with a loss of 2-4 deg/sec. This ship is hardly OP. Additionally, you gain a foreward weapon slot (over science vessels) but lose an aft slot (under cruisers).

The only thing which might be a tad OP is the console layout. However, you notice that it has 3 Engineering consoles rather than 4. This is a big hit to survivability, therefore the 4 Tac consoles can be justified to compensate.

Essentially, this ship is a "light cruiser" for VA level. It has SOME survivability, though not much more than an escort, and it gains some manueverability, but at the sacrafice of Utility (Science) and Tankability (Full Cruiser). Additionally, because you don't have the cannons, you aren't pulling the alpha strikes of Escorts.

Seems like a pretty balanced build to me.
The account formerly known as C_Carmichael
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack. I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 355
# 7
10-09-2012, 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer1 View Post
First off, the Excelsior is a Heavy Cruiser (not a submarine, how do you get any non cloaker as a sub?)

And most of the stats you suggested for your new design parallel the Armitage class.
The classification of "submarine" for the Exclesior is not based on capability, but rather size.

The size is the primary factor I'm discussing here. Granted, I get into scope of work but mostly the Naval comparison was on size, and the Excelsior is too small to be a Battleship, and too large to be a Missle Cruiser, when compared to the Oddy/Sovie/Galaxy or the next step down of the Intrepid/Armitage.

And yes, the spec is similar to the Armitage, but it doesn't have the teeth of an Armitage because it lacks fighters and cannon, but it has the survivability edge on the Armitage thru hull and consoles.

The Armitage is a nice SIZE of ship, but for the most part, I don't like it's style. I much prefer a more "standard" Starfleet design template. Saucer, Hull, Nacelles that are on pylons up behind the saucer. That's primarily what I'm looking for, without having to take a monster cruiser that can't turn within a lightyear radius.

I'm looking for a bit more nimble light cruiser type ship, like the USS Port Royal, rather than the Battleship like the USS Missouri.
The account formerly known as C_Carmichael
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack. I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,333
# 8
10-10-2012, 09:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccarmichael07 View Post
The classification of "submarine" for the Exclesior is not based on capability, but rather size.

The size is the primary factor I'm discussing here. Granted, I get into scope of work but mostly the Naval comparison was on size, and the Excelsior is too small to be a Battleship, and too large to be a Missle Cruiser, when compared to the Oddy/Sovie/Galaxy or the next step down of the Intrepid/Armitage.
So why not call the Excel' a heavy cruiser then? Isn't that between a battleship and a guided missile cruiser? Submarines live off of a stealth factor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ccarmichael07 View Post
And yes, the spec is similar to the Armitage, but it doesn't have the teeth of an Armitage because it lacks fighters and cannon, but it has the survivability edge on the Armitage thru hull and consoles.

The Armitage is a nice SIZE of ship, but for the most part, I don't like it's style. I much prefer a more "standard" Starfleet design template. Saucer, Hull, Nacelles that are on pylons up behind the saucer. That's primarily what I'm looking for, without having to take a monster cruiser that can't turn within a lightyear radius.

I'm looking for a bit more nimble light cruiser type ship, like the USS Port Royal, rather than the Battleship like the USS Missouri.

If you don't like that the Armitage mounts fighters and dhc/dc, don't mount them, use lighter weapons. I can't help you as far as the appearance. Otherwise the Armitage does the exact same job.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,746
# 9
10-10-2012, 09:35 AM
Your proposed ship sounds interesting. But i wouldn't like its look tbh. Swet-back Nacelles? No thanks, i never liked that style.

I would like if they would renew the Galaxy Class - style. Maybe a bit smaller than the Galaxy Class, a much shorter but sturdier neck and the nacelles on the same level as the engineering hull.

It wouldn't be able to use Cannons and would not be as OP as Escorts or as surviveable as Cruisers, it would be more like something in between those tow ship types.
Think of it like a (napoleonic) Frigate they where not as powerful as Ships of the line of their times but they where much more capable to operate independent.


Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 355
# 10
10-10-2012, 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yreodred View Post
Your proposed ship sounds interesting. But i wouldn't like its look tbh. Swet-back Nacelles? No thanks, i never liked that style.

I would like if they would renew the Galaxy Class - style. Maybe a bit smaller than the Galaxy Class, a much shorter but sturdier neck and the nacelles on the same level as the engineering hull.

It wouldn't be able to use Cannons and would not be as OP as Escorts or as surviveable as Cruisers, it would be more like something in between those tow ship types.
Think of it like a (napoleonic) Frigate they where not as powerful as Ships of the line of their times but they where much more capable to operate independent.


Thank you for reading or ignoring, depending on who you are.
^ This guy gets it!

See, while we disagree on the appearance, it highlights exactly what I'm trying to say, in that more choices and more options are needed for appearance, but regardless of what they look like, some additional classifications of ships are desired as well.

Some ships that have a more cruiser-like appearance, but with more of the fire-power of a escort, and with the size of a Prometheus or Luna.
The account formerly known as C_Carmichael
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack. I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
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