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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 797
# 11
10-10-2012, 03:00 AM
i appreciate what they are now realizing. that shields in this game are king and are what keep you alive.

well duh! theyve been slowly changing the game to be like that since season 3 or so.

anyone remember before they did a general increase in shields? or before they started releaseing "super" shields with huge caps even before you equip it?

or back when people used to be able to fly shieldless in a match just for fun and NOT get killed just by being looked at?

now they did a complete 180 with this single patch. what the hell are they trying to do here? really? for about a year and half "its all about the shields staying up to keep you alive" to "bah shields are too strong"
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 12
10-10-2012, 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716maikai View Post
i appreciate what they are now realizing. that shields in this game are king and are what keep you alive.

well duh! theyve been slowly changing the game to be like that since season 3 or so.

anyone remember before they did a general increase in shields? or before they started releaseing "super" shields with huge caps even before you equip it?

or back when people used to be able to fly shieldless in a match just for fun and NOT get killed just by being looked at?

now they did a complete 180 with this single patch. what the hell are they trying to do here? really? for about a year and half "its all about the shields staying up to keep you alive" to "bah shields are too strong"
Didn't you hear? The autumn collection was just released in Milan! Shields are soooo last year! Now it's all retro-hull!
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 13
10-10-2012, 07:02 AM
Hull tanking is back in style with the latest patch. I am creating a post.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 511
# 14
10-10-2012, 08:40 AM
The problem with hull tanking:

1. Resistances have sharp and very harsh dim9nishing returns. This means before you factor in weapons damage modifers you will be taking between 2 and 3 times the damage per shot from anything against your hull.

2. Resistances AFAIK are applied on top of damage multipliers. Torps have far and away the worst modifers so torps do even less to sheilds than most things. Against hulls however their full damage, high burst and the lack of resistances takes their damage to even crazier heights than it does cannons, (beams get a damage reduction vs. hulls so probably only get a slight increase, whilst cannons are equally good against both so get equal damage vs hull and sheilds, and so see a damage differance in line with resistance differance).

3. Thanks to tac team and how sheild heals are applied a sheild heal heals about 4 times as much as the listed amount unless it overheals.


The problem here is that the game's current content has been balanced around the drastic increase in healing sheilds heals have and the drastic damage reduction they have. Without the those factors sheild helaing is simply insufficent to keep up with damage intake. Now in terms of personal tanking ability this is a very small change. It's not going to scratch any of my tanking builds on a personel level.

But several peices of PVE content, (espcially the new fleet stuff), ask you to heal somthing else, (a freighter, the starbase, e.t.c.), at the same time as absorbing massive amounts of punishment yourself. You can't avoid having to heal somone else and take large amounts of damage yourself. And even if you could, in blockade and especially NWS it would be a moronic thing to do becuase your making an allready difficult situation even worse becuase an entire ship just effectivlly dropped out the fight. 15 man starbase defence isn't s bad, (14+ other players), but it's still far from great.


PVP wise it's probably not that bad, but it's horrifficlly destructive to PVE play.
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 846
# 15
10-10-2012, 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
Back in the day, the cruiser with 2xET3 and AtoSIF3 useed to rock the healing...

The shield heals took over...

But now... with shield healing taking a hit, and hull resistance getting a great boost... combined with everyone and his uncle running Tac Team, reducing the value of hull resist debuffs a lot... Is there a chance hull tanking/healing can regain some of it's past glory?

(please refrain from raging about the patch notes in this thread. I'm trying to look forward here )
Hull Healing was never Boss in STO. Never. Shield tanking has always been king. The difference is, there was alot less people in the know about that back then. It's always been Extend, EPTS2 or 3, ASIF3.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,392
# 16
10-10-2012, 09:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pottsey5g View Post
I agree shield tanks tend to have more resistance but we are only talking 10% to 15% difference sometimes not even that much. 4 shield facings at 75% resistance is still less hit points then hull + resistance. Then if you compare skills Haz emitters heals with resistance tanks more DPS then TTS with resistance. Same for Aux to Sif/Eng team against EptS. Or at least this was the case when I ran the numbers years back, I even factored in passive hull and shield regen. When I get home from work will re-run the numbers.
Last I checked w/the Weaver and KHG MKXII I could get over 20k per facing that's over 80k shields @ higher resists. Even on the lower end of 8k per facing that's still 32k which is still higher than my b'rel's hull. Comparing hull and shield "tanking" potential gets tricky fast.

To repair hulls you have HE, Aux2sif, ET and borg proc.

To repair shields you have Shield Regen Modifier, Shield Distro Doffs, RSP, EPTS, TSS, Sci Team, ES and borg proc.

To resist hulls you have APD, HE, Aux2Sif, Hazzard Doffs, PH, and borg proc. (leaving out capt abilities and P2W consoles and ship abilities)

To resist shields you have ETPS, ES, TSS, APD. (leaving out P2W consoles, ship abilities, and capt abilities)

On the face of it there are more basic abilities to repair shields and more basic abilities to resist hull damage. But, the abilities have different cooldowns. Also, there are Doff abilities which can greatly reduce cooldowns.

Take Tech doffs for a zombie boat. They can basically give you 2xEPTS and 2xRSP w/only 1 copy of each assuming you have a boat w/2x Lt Eng boff slots. Depending on your layout they could be high level as well. My memory of TSS cooldown is fuzzy, but assuming 45 sec cooldown w/30 sec shared, you'd only need 1 slot of TSS as well since the 70% is so close to 66.6%.

So for a "selfish" zombie shield repair cruiser build you could have EPTS3, RSP, Aux2batt, TSS2, ES3, PH1, ET1 (to clear subsystem debuff), TT1, APD, HE1. In theory, you'd save the EPTS2, RSP, PH1, HE1, TSS2, APD, and Team abilities to see how the other team responds to your ES3 and than you respond accordingly by rolling repairs/resists as needed. Back to the main point, the longer cooldown shields abilities are now up to twice as effective from the Tech doffs w/aux2batt (which btw would spike 3 of 4 systems' powers). Remember there's also more of them to begin with.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 172
# 17
10-10-2012, 09:42 AM
Torps might have a purpose again. Isnt that what you want mav? Drop sheild easier then launch torps for the kill.

Cant have your cake and eat it too.


Bottom line is that some people hate change. Change can be good or bad. Without knowing whats in the pipeline kinda hard to rage about this. I for one am glad the vet cruisers will take a hit. Anyway, 12 more days.
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Future Capt Gecko II Hitlers take on PvP
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 230
# 18
10-10-2012, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by criminius View Post
Torps might have a purpose again.
No. The problem with torpedoes is not extend, it's TT.
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