Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 41
10-09-2012, 07:07 PM
Sorry but having done this upteen times i can tell you point blank a group never needs to stay outside 5KM if it can actualy complete this. It's also unresonable to expect it, Cruisers with their broadsides and decent numbers of weapons slos can happilly run away from her all day, Escort's actually need to turn to face, a full volley would require the escort to start much furthar back than 5KM to avoid slipping inside 5KM. As the above chart shows (assuming it's accurratte), beams start matching cannons at 7KM out and cruisers pack more of them, (while escorts get better abilities). The escort likliy still has the advantage at 7KM, but if they're running in from 10KM to 5KM the advantage over a crusier is going to be very small. At which point you might as well not be there, another crusier would get the job done just as well and be more resilient.

The fact is in real terms an escort that isn't firing from inside 5KM is a LOT worse off than one thats furthar out because the buiffer zone it needs to make it's run is just so disadvantageous. Besides, if she cloaks, so bloody what. It dosen't matter. Eitheir you can kill her or you can't. Staying way back isn't going to change that and just makes it go even slower becuase everyones DPS is through the floor, (Well unless there's a death of escorts anyway).
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 42
10-10-2012, 04:00 AM
Since you didn't actually quote anyone, I'm going to assume you're replying to me because you mention a "chart" (technically I didn't post a link to a chart but a spreadsheet, however it's the closest thing I can see to a chart in this thread and is also the only post so far that's actually substantiated by parsed numbers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by carl103 View Post
Sorry but having done this upteen times i can tell you...
Firstly, I wouldn't start off a post like that by bragging about how many times you've run a certain task force and using that as the sole basis for your argument.

The word "umpteen" implies a number somewhere in the late teens to twenties. There are plenty of people, myself included, who have successfully completed KASE hundreds, if not thousands of times. Most people I know who are in that ballpark prefer to run with premade teams, the STF runs becoming part of their regular fleet gameplay or just as a means to farm EDCs/Dilithium. Personally I tend to stick with PUGs, mostly because of the extra challenge involved in getting lumbered with a group of largely incompetent players and still being able to pull off a win (though probably also partly because of the Blackadder effect...)


Quote:
point blank a group never needs to stay outside 5KM if it can actualy complete this. It's also unresonable to expect it, Cruisers with their broadsides and decent numbers of weapons slos can happilly run away from her all day, Escort's actually need to turn to face, a full volley would require the escort to start much furthar back than 5KM to avoid slipping inside 5KM. As the above chart shows (assuming it's accurratte), beams start matching cannons at 7KM out and cruisers pack more of them, (while escorts get better abilities). The escort likliy still has the advantage at 7KM, but if they're running in from 10KM to 5KM the advantage over a crusier is going to be very small. At which point you might as well not be there, another crusier would get the job done just as well and be more resilient.
Fine.

Let's start at the top:

Assuming you have a decent tank and nobody in a high-dps escort decides to go on a "rambo" run... then no, your team doesn't all need to stay outside 5km, it just makes it a lot safer for teams where aggro control is not locked down hard.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the team should be trying to "run away" from Donatra. The goal isn't to get away from her, but to keep her at a certain distance - this is called "kiting". Providing the person with aggro stays outside 5km she will not cloak, the reason you don't want to be further away is that your damage output starts to drop off more noticeably- therefore the "sweet spot" is to keep her between 5 and 6km.

You don't "hit and run" - you park and fire, only backing away slightly if she changes target and makes a move towards you. There's no "making a run" involved here. It's actually very disadvantageous for the team to be moving about much when fighting Donatra because it makes it much easier for someone to make a mistake and momentarilly pull aggro and move within 5km of her.

Keeping Donatra at least 5km from you at all times can be accomplished in a large variety of ways - movement debuffs such as Eject Warp Plasma/Vent Theta Radiation/Gravity Well/etc are the safest method. Chroniton Torpedos are less reliable but can still be made to work with Multiple Projectile DOFFs. Energy drains such as Tyken's Rift, Plasmonic Leech, Aceton Assimilator, Power Siphon Drones or even Polaron Weaponry can be used to lower her Engine Power and thus slow her movement to manageable levels. Personal movement buffs such as Evasive or APO are another method. Pushing abilities such as Tractor Beam Repulsors are yet another although they need to be very tightly controlled in order to be beneficial instead of detrimental.

So yes, it's possible for a cruiser to orbit around Donatra and keep broadsiding her without using any extra powers - but many of the above abilities can allow an Escort to tank Donatra without turning a single degree. I do it regularly.


Quote:
The fact is in real terms an escort that isn't firing from inside 5KM is a LOT worse off than one thats furthar out because the buiffer zone it needs to make it's run is just so disadvantageous. Besides, if she cloaks, so bloody what. It dosen't matter. Eitheir you can kill her or you can't. Staying way back isn't going to change that and just makes it go even slower becuase everyones DPS is through the floor, (Well unless there's a death of escorts anyway).
I've covered the "run" bit above, but the bit in red is just so utterly wrong that I had to address it particularly.

The whole issue at hand here is that bad PUGs can't kill Donatra.

They can't kill her because they ignore the fact that she doesn't cloak if they stay 5km away. They fly close to her, gaining a slight damage buff from reduced range, and then she shoots her megabeam at one of them and cloaks.

Even if (and we're discussing a bad PUG, so it's a big "if") the megabeam doesn't kill anyone, Donatra stays cloaked for a considerable period of time. During this time, she regenerates shield strength at a very high rate, and hull a bit more slowly. By the time she decloaks again, chances are that all the damage the bad PUG has done has been healed. The result is that the PUG can't make noticeable headway against her (and being oneshot by her megabeam probably doesn't help morale much!) and eventually people begin to ragequit.

If someone on that PUG takes it upon themselves to stay 5km away from her and hold aggro (and I have been that person, hundreds of times now) she doesn't cloak, and the team are able to chip away at her until she dies. This is how bad PUGs can be made to win that STF with just one decent player on the team.

-----------------------------

Bad PUGs need just one "decent" person to stay 5km away and tank Donatra because nobody else on that PUG can do enough DPS at closer range to pull aggro off the tank. On teams with better players, chances are that someone else's DPS will be much higher than on that bad PUG and you're left with a choice:

(i) The high-DPS ships will all have to stay 5km away from Donatra in case they pull aggro off the tank. This will drop their Damage output by around 25% compared to flying at 1km away from her, but will prevent her from cloaking and therefore speed up the fight.

(ii) Everyone but the main tank (who remains 5km away) closes in and blasts her. Everyone apart from the tank does maximum DPS, but you run the risk of her cloaking a few times if aggro lock is temporarilly lost (if the "tank" has extremely good DPS combined with high investment into Threat Control, and all other teammates have no investment into Threat Control, this may never happen...)

(iii) Everyone closes in to point blank range and and blasts her. Technically the team will do very high spike damage, but Donatra will cloak regularly and the fight will drag out for a long time unless you have some means of completely preventing her from cloaking (and in my experience about the only thing that can accomplish this is a lot of stacked energy drains and/or disables).

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 10-10-2012 at 04:12 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,260
# 43
10-10-2012, 06:52 AM
Firstly, I don't PUG. Most elite space STFs we do are with the fleet now, as I don't have much use to run space STFs anymore for "stuff"

If we have a cruiser with threat control able to hold Donatra that is great, but generally they don't. Even in a channel PUG it doesn't happen often. The 5km is slow and stupid.

1. Attack Donatra, let her cloak, she won't cloak right away so throw some damage out.
2. Use fighter or other tricks to track her, find her in 15s and open fire, she'll uncloak completely unprepared, no high end weapons, AoE attack
3. Her cloak seems dependant on when she first cloaked, if you break it fast she can't cloak again for a while, just destroy her then and there, its easy.

This method is faster than any 5km runs I've ever seen, even from players with higher DPS averages than people in our fleet.

Being an escort at 5km and having agro is ridiculous, you can't do anything, and if no cruisers are using threat control the minute you can stop running to stay out of 5km range you get it back again.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 44
10-10-2012, 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicha0 View Post
Firstly, I don't PUG. Most elite space STFs we do are with the fleet now, as I don't have much use to run space STFs anymore for "stuff"

If we have a cruiser with threat control able to hold Donatra that is great, but generally they don't. Even in a channel PUG it doesn't happen often. The 5km is slow and stupid.

1. Attack Donatra, let her cloak, she won't cloak right away so throw some damage out.
2. Use fighter or other tricks to track her, find her in 15s and open fire, she'll uncloak completely unprepared, no high end weapons, AoE attack
3. Her cloak seems dependant on when she first cloaked, if you break it fast she can't cloak again for a while, just destroy her then and there, its easy.

This method is faster than any 5km runs I've ever seen, even from players with higher DPS averages than people in our fleet.
Since you "don't PUG", I'm going to assume your teammates are at least semi-competent.

That being the case, together your team likely has sufficient levels of damage output to kill Donatra despite regular cloaking. If no one person on the team is sufficiently equipped/skilled to reliably hold aggro on their own, it then becomes a question of whether your "aggro pullers" all sitting 5-6km away and doing constant damage (albeit 8% to 35% less than their maximum output, depending on weapons loadouts) is faster or slower than letting her cloak and trying to keep within 1km of her for maximum spike damage.

For many teams, particularly those with low Damage output (or certainly low SPIKE damage output!) that tradeoff is worth it.


Quote:
Being an escort at 5km and having agro is ridiculous, you can't do anything, and if no cruisers are using threat control the minute you can stop running to stay out of 5km range you get it back again.
I'd suggest that it's more ridiculous to state that staying at 5km and holding aggro implies that an Escort can't do anything...

In a typical STF Escort build, versus a single target I deal ~40% of my damage via Torpedos and ~60% via Energy Weapons. Torpedo damage is unaffected by range, so if I sit at 5-6km I can expect my total damage output only to be reduced by about 18% (0.4+(0.6*0.7)). If I'm flying my Armitage, the damage dropoff is lessened even further due to my fighters' damage being unaffected by me sitting further back.

"Tanking" as an Escort in such a situation would therefore trade approximately 15-18% of my damage, and let my teammates wail away on Donatra to their hearts' content without any fear of her cloaking. A marginal tradeoff in damage, in exchange for a vast decrease in fight time, is simply good tactics.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 87
# 45
10-11-2012, 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashkrik23 View Post
If everyone stays back 5km she will not cloak at all.
So many people dont know that and dont listen if you tell them
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