Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,222
# 21
10-11-2012, 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carcharodon1975 View Post
How about producing an intricate, puzzle,combat- and story-heavy mission with random events and multiple endings, that offer different rewards on how you finish the mission.....takes what,2 months of work,will be content that players will keep using because it's not the same mission over and over again.

The simple fact is Cryptic/PWE are just not willing to make that kind of content,it's all about short term investments that need to turn a profit within 60 hours after release,instead of making longer lasting quality content.

Some advice to PWE.....if you are intent on behaving like a greedy little Ferengi,be prepared to be treated like one......Klingon style!
Exactly. We need more persistent world elements, whether that's mini-games with different outcomes, missions with different paths and endings, and territory control. This game won't survive without them. At least the time you put into development will be worth it because they will be a lot more replayable than FE's. FE's should still be released but not as often as these types of things.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,400
# 22
10-11-2012, 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
I think misunderstanding this on players' part causes player dissatisfaction and frustration, justified or otherwise. I think players want a business deal that isn't the deal they are being offered. Inherently, I REALLY DO think many players view cash shops and even subs as basically "thank yous" for Kickstarter or PBS style contributions and donations to content development. "I pledged my car to you guys. Just don't cancel Sesame Street!"

I think the misunderstanding on developers and publishers' part stems from misunderstanding the value of what they're offering or what players are actually buying into. "We offer you a product. You buy it. You should be happy! How can we make the product we sold you better? We can sell you better products! Stronger products! Better guns! Bigger potions! Okay, let's focus on more repeatable sales!"

If any developer actually thinks this way, that's easily the most confused and delirious thing I've ever heard of.

Video games are not new, MMOs are not new.



Without new, somewhat meaningful, things to actually do in a game all of those ships and items and costumes from the cash shop are totally pointless and irrelevant.



People have been "doing things" in games for ages, new stages, new levels, new zones, new enemies (even if they are regurgitated and upgraded copies) - for any developer to pretend that these are not the things people want in an MMO in addition to new items, gear, etc., would be purposefully obtuse.

Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 23
10-11-2012, 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stf65 View Post
I think what you fail to grasp is that Cryptic does not make any money on its own. If you buy zen the money goes to Perfect World, because you are buying it from them. If you buy a subscription the money goes to Perfect World. If you buy an LTS the money goes to Perfect World. The only income Cryptic makes is what Perfect World decides to give them each month/quarter/year.

STO is not financing other games. Perfect World is financing STO, and CO, and NWNs. Perfect World decides how much money Crytpic gets to pay its bills, and gets to decide what budget each division within Cryptic gets to work with from the money they give Cryptic. Perfect World is not giving Cryptic money from its STO income. It is giving them money from their corporate accounts which has income from 13 different games. Forsaken World and Jade Dynasty are financing NWN in the same way that STO is: profits from all games go toward making more profits.

STO is not carrying CO or NWN. STO is given a budget and expected to make profits. CO is given a budget and expected to make profits. When NWN goes live it will be given a budget and be expected to make profits. Perfect World pays all the bills and gets all the profits. Each division in Cryptic is required to make profit to benefit Perfect World, not Cryptic.
This is the main problem. PWE poorly maintains Wanmei game to the point of disrepair, as its just 1 Chief of Engineering + whatever he can get his hands on while trying to keep 9 NX-classes afloat while under fire from both players, CFOs and game bugs. I'm never trusting them to fix gamebugs or give us useful content. In fact, they chop out content as they are localized from China. Whatever the hell funds that logic...

Rusty Hearts, Torchlight and Cryptic games get off better because they actually have dev teams on their games. For RH and TL as far as I recall they are 1 dev team for 1 game as the studio was responsible for 1 game alone. Cryptic is a small team that has huge problems in this framework. Their PWE overlords are sucking up their, and our, money and only giving them back a pittance, while applying the same inept management as to the other Wanmei localizations to Cryptic. They are a small (if absolutely puny) team managing TWO (and soon to be THREE) MMOs... when a good mmo that is infamous for player tears requires little over a thousand artists, devs, story writers, creative directors, coders, etc.

And then, when something breaks in another Wanmei localization, that game puts out a distress call, and the engineering department has to answer it. I suspect Cryptic gets rerouted to some of them, as I find that bug fixes seemed to have improved on other Wanmei games ever since PWE bought Cryptic.

This is why I whinge about the lack of content, but I don't want to hammer home the point. They are having a hard time, even as we are having a hard time. Doesn't help that they make gaffes here and there. But until Cryptic actually gets more funding (and stop at 3!! Please!!!), hires the army of programmers required of an MMO, I'm happy that I get to fly around the galaxy doffing.

Because really, that's what Starfleet does day-to-day. Ferrying people from place to place, getting jobs done, answering distress calls, sending crew on assignments elsewhere. When its Prime Time, something happens, and we have our TV show missions and wonky STFs. And then its back to the daily grind.

At the very least, this grind can be done while offline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Comm. Pion
What should I wish upon the endless universe;
To be able to smile and forgive everything;
That's right, if we light up the dream in our hearts without averting our eyes;
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Last edited by khayuung; 10-11-2012 at 04:52 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 389
# 24
10-11-2012, 05:20 PM
Completely disagree with the above. They say they have the money and people now, so that excuse is toast. Don't do their apologizing for them. They don't have it bad at all according to Stahl. And we need to hold them accountable more now than ever, not less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jengoz View Post
Silly Rabbit, the Devs don't play the game. That's why they have no idea about the problems.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,659
# 25
10-11-2012, 05:29 PM
never mind
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Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 315
# 26
10-11-2012, 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iconians View Post
What did they learn? The same thing every other MMO in existance knows by now. This is truth, this is not speculation. This is not hyperbole, this is not opinion. This is established fact.

Players will burn through content faster than it can be created.
I've read that a good number of times across several games from different devs. The quality of content the vocal crowd wants simply takes time. I've proposed/asked for systems, myself. Content is great, and I love it, but at the same time there needs to be systems, games-within-the-game, for people to involve themselves in.

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/17916...p#.UHd4DsXA_5M

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/17917...p#.UHd4A8XA_5M

I think that we need a good mix between theme-park (story content) and sandbox. I'd like to see more systems created that enable players to interact with and against each other, even if indirectly.
Updated 2/11/13! Buying Zen with Energy Credits | Upgrading Duty Officers without Dilithium.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 315
# 27
10-11-2012, 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carcharodon1975 View Post
How about producing an intricate, puzzle,combat- and story-heavy mission with random events and multiple endings, that offer different rewards on how you finish the mission.....takes what,2 months of work,will be content that players will keep using because it's not the same mission over and over again.
Something like that would be the feature of a season, I think. But, moreover, it would need to accommodate different playstyles as well - not everyone enjoys the same things. I don't know if multiple replayability, in and of itself, is a compelling reason to for everyone to replay - there comes a point where you simply click past, go the most efficient route (most rewards for the least work), and go from there. Players are good at finding those.

Now, if it was a group "puzzle," where the playerbase is trying to solve it? That could be interesting. New branches/directions would be decided based on how players do, or choices made, and temporarily lock out other ones. Let the thing reset periodically, so once it reaches an end-point, it begins again.

Personally, my dream MMO would be Babylon 5 - a definite overall story arc, but the server/story resets every so often (maybe a month, maybe three months). When it resets, the choices you've made affects your starting point, and then what storylines you can advance through that go round.
  • Go through once and you're nobody, trying to make their way up in the world. Maybe you pick up some training to pilot, or make friends with Star Fury pilots. "Hey, pity you weren't around during the War, we could've used you."
  • Next play through, you have the option to have been in the war, and start off being a pilot. You go through all that content. Maybe you discover a Ranger station, and start learning about the Rangers. You also distinquish yourself in combat, and are eligable for promotions.
  • Next play through you have the option to become a Ranger, or go further up the ranks.
  • A few playthroughs thru, you've unlocked a lot of "background" for yourself, and start off being equal to the major players - Sheridan, Delenn, etc.

Alan Wake: American Nightmare does something similar, but different.
Updated 2/11/13! Buying Zen with Energy Credits | Upgrading Duty Officers without Dilithium.
Q&A Presents: Maui Online! My friends' radioshow/podcast Computers, with occasional forays into astronomy.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 318
# 28
10-12-2012, 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikahiro View Post
Something like that would be the feature of a season, I think. But, moreover, it would need to accommodate different playstyles as well - not everyone enjoys the same things. I don't know if multiple replayability, in and of itself, is a compelling reason to for everyone to replay - there comes a point where you simply click past, go the most efficient route (most rewards for the least work), and go from there. Players are good at finding those.
Well,that's where the random events come in,it can block the most efficient route and force the player(s) to rethink their options.Random events combined with multiple paths,that produce different worthwhile rewards based on the mission outcome....yeah,people will keep playing that content.A huge problem with STO is that the missions are waaaay to linear,in most cases there is only one way of completing the mission.People don't have to think,it's all point,click,shoot and move on to the next point,click and shoot mission.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 280
# 29
10-12-2012, 04:27 AM
I found this article on a site about game design. It was from a panel talking about F2P design. They talked about some points that worry me about the current state of online gaming.


Quote:
Davidson (Amazon.com) on the target market for free-to-play games:
"We like to think that the ones spending vast sums on these games are sons of Dubai oligarchs, but we have the data to prove that they're not, and that they probably can't afford to spend what they're spending. We're saying our market is suckers -- we're going to cast a net that catches as many mentally ill people as we can!"


Quote:
Davidson (Amazon.com) on the dangers of making unethical games:
"The long-term danger [of employing psychologically manipulative design techniques in games] is that we are poisoning the well; we're watching a large-scale tragedy of the commons play out on our player bases. Our audience is becoming inured to viral trickery we employ to get people what we want to do. For example, good UX design says 'Find the button the user is most likely to press, and make it as large and central and green as possible.' So what social games designers do is put the button you want to press and make it small and gray and uninviting, and make the button that shares to your whole friend feed that you just passed level two of the tutorial. We've boiled the frog."


you can find the whole article here. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/1...asutra+News%29


While, I can see the F2P saved STO from being closed down last year, I just worry that in reality it is just ?boiling the frog.?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 30
10-12-2012, 08:46 AM
OP, I've read your posts a lot and frankly you're probably one of the brightest guys on this forum, and the kickstarter idea is a really awesome idea.

Unfortunately, it's unconventional and has an iota of risk, and the idea comes from "outside" the company, so it's unlikely to be tried with STO. Though I can definitely say I'd toss in a few bucks here and there for this sort of thing.

It's really awful that they won't, too - I'm pretty sure that Star Trek is THE IDEAL FANBASE to try this with for any number of reasons.

Any devs listening, please take a moment to consider this stuff and pass it up to your bosses. Dan Stahl, if you're listening, PLEASE consider giving this a shot, you could even start with a couple small projects if you can just think of something fairly awesome to start with, even if its small.
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