Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 987
# 31
10-12-2012, 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrisvalar View Post
So, you're going to acknowledge a perceived slight in group A, but you're not going to acknowledge the perceived value of something to group B, while acknowledging the perceived value of that very same thing to group A, so you give them group B's bauble, and create a new perceived slight, for group B this time.

It could be cause I'm crazy, but uh...

I fail to see the progress.

Next we'll need to give group C's shiny bauble to group B, and group C will perceive an all new slight of their own and, well... We already put the Galaxy-X on the C-store. Surely they ought to be used to it by now?

Cryptic can create a vicious cycle, or they can create some small new token item. Or they can do nothing. Which is maybe not better, but definately less noisy than option 1.
Leviathan is right in that the Devs said they wanted to get the Vet Boffs in games in more way than one. I remember them saying that (I won't be able to find a link; crappy forums reboot wiped the ability to search by name).
Quote:
Now, I'm no programmer or art-guy, so I don't know every detail, but it seems to me that you are often inclined to overstate the time and cost involved in doing anything 'new'. Which is a little disingenious, as just a few posts back you yourself were already dreaming up new races for vet BOs to be added, which would be no cheaper a thing to do.
Stating your wants t(hat have opportunity cost) does not invalidate your stating how much opportunity cost is associated with development.
Quote:
Most of what makes a bridge officer already exists. All that really needs to be done for something like this, is for some numbers to be crunched on a bridge officer trait, and some default skills to be chosen. Art hardly even gets into it. That's what the tailor is for.
But it does have to have several people involved with it. And say each person spends 30 min doing their task associated with it. That's scheduled time. Also, short efforts like that have a nasty way of disrupting the workflow of larger efforts. Not to mention the fact that the acquisition of said boffs has to be tested; actually, all of the boff has to be tested. Some weird things can happen that you didn't expect. And don't give me the "LULZ, they don't test things", because that doesn't matter. If it breaks after launch, developer time still has to be devoted to fixing it. So the time cost is there, but it doesn't have to be all in one go.
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They might (but probably won't) be added character-bound to one of those reputation systems.
The Omega Rep will give you an alternate path to the Mk 12 sets, which are character bound. As for the Romulan Reputation, its really up in the air. You can't say with any certainty what the rewards will or won't be.
Quote:
But after out of the blue taking something group A already (practically) had and giving it to someone else, your solution cannot be to solve the problem by doing the same exact thing to group B. Cause you'll keep having the same problem.
So, then, what you'd give to the Actual long time vets? A lot of saying NO, that's not fair, but without suggesting an alternate course of action sounds an awful like complaining/whining.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 740
# 32
10-12-2012, 04:34 PM
I think that I would prefer that instead of the VET BOffs, people who have hit 1,000 Days and every 200 Days thereafter get one Vet Token. That Token can be used to add one of the VET Traits to a Captain of your choice.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,596
# 33
10-12-2012, 05:55 PM
If we're talking about something that's work but unique...

Okay... Liberated Borg vet BOs. Have the (still unique) vet traits. Different from the old ones to preserve visual exclusivity (however token). Has synergy with the LTS reward. It's a few extra costume parts but it's different.

For the sake of argument, I'd pretend they maybe get the cool ground traits with two vet traits but don't get to stack Efficient along with Space Warfare Specialist or else they'd make all BOs obsolete for space.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,596
# 34
10-12-2012, 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrisvalar View Post

But after out of the blue taking something group A already (practically) had and giving it to someone else, your solution cannot be to solve the problem by doing the same exact thing to group B. Cause you'll keep having the same problem.
It kinda does because it addresses hurt feelings with a "thank you" while also reiterating that you should not expect promises of exclusivity. It says, "Have this. You feel bad. But don't ask for things other people don't get because we'll assign and reassign stuff as we see fit." Taking the reward has a lesson embedded into it, that they don't want players to form opinions based on what other people have.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 688
# 35
10-12-2012, 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault
Leviathan is right in that the Devs said they wanted to get the Vet Boffs in games in more way than one. I remember them saying that (I won't be able to find a link; crappy forums reboot wiped the ability to search by name).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrisvalar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99
The devs who made them said they wanted them to be more common and available through other means.
I'm not opposed to that. It sounds familiar enough anyway.
Covered that. Sorta. And yeah... can't find anything anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault
Stating your wants t(hat have opportunity cost) does not invalidate your stating how much opportunity cost is associated with development.
Nothing in that quote was me stating any wants, and I have no idea what an opportunity cost is, so... yyyeah... *backs away slowly*

Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault
But it does have to have several people involved with it.
Everything does. And I don't know exactly how many, and I don't know how much time it takes, and I don't know what each is paid per hour. But of all the things that could be done, short of doing nothing, it's still one of the easiest and by extension probably quickest and therefor cheapest things they could do. Now if I'd asked for a Veteran Exocomp bridge officer (HINT!) that would've taken an isometric f-ton of time, cause even if you leave out any and all customization, you have to figure out if it needs to be equipped with armor and weapons or shields and if so, how those'll display and behave in combat, if maybe it needs to be set so it doesn't speak up in away team dialogue cause Exocomps aren't supposed to be able to speak, whether it'd land on chairs and/or consoles, and so on and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault
And don't give me the "LULZ, they don't test things", because that doesn't matter. If it breaks after launch, developer time still has to be devoted to fixing it. So the time cost is there, but it doesn't have to be all in one go.
Well, now I don't have to anymore, do I? Oh and by the way, I lulz only ironiclulzly. It's both amusing and depressing that you're factoring in failure ahead of time, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault
The Omega Rep will give you an alternate path to the Mk 12 sets, which are character bound. As for the Romulan Reputation, its really up in the air. You can't say with any certainty what the rewards will or won't be.
I suppose I can't, but I didn't really mean either of those reputations specifically. A starfleet veteran from the Romulans would be kind of... suspicious. From Omega Force, it'd be possible, but if they were going to give us Boffs they'd most likely give us cross-faction guys in full MACO or Honor Guard costumes, for novelty value. I just meant reputation systems in general. It's bound not to be limited to these two, and there may well be more internal faction-based ones in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault
So, then, what you'd give to the Actual long time vets? A lot of saying NO, that's not fair, but without suggesting an alternate course of action sounds an awful like complaining/whining.
Wait... what? I am one of these long-time vets. None of that taking two year hiatuses either. And I did suggest, if they were going to consider fixing this, they make some new Boffs, in a previous post. I must say I'm a little confused. I remember not too long ago I was one of the ones riling against the casual manner in which Vet Awards had been reduced to lifer benefits, and this thread's starter was firmly in the "Shut up and love it, you damn dirty elitists!" camp, and now I'm whining by not demanding a super special shiny for myself RIGHT NAOW!?

This place makes no sense anymore!

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99
It kinda does because it addresses hurt feelings with a "thank you" while also reiterating that you should not expect promises of exclusivity. It says, "Have this. You feel bad. But don't ask for things other people don't get because we'll assign and reassign stuff as we see fit." Taking the reward has a lesson embedded into it, that they don't want players to form opinions based on what other people have.
Perceived slights, perceived values and now gifts with unspoken messages? You think that's going to work out? How about just putting a post up on the site? Just for clarity's sake:

Dear Beta-Veterans, to paraphrase the great William Shatner,
"GET A LIFE! It's just a game!", quit whining already.

Love, Dan.

P.S. It saddens me to inform you Wheely, the server hamster, passed
away last night. As you all know, as per the terms of use put forth as
of this morning, your lifetime subscriptions were only valid for the
duration of Wheely's continued interactions with our plane of existence.
As such, all LTSes have been cancelled. If you have not yet claimed
your fireworks device, captain's yacht, Chimera or Penghu', keep an
eye on the C-store in the coming weeks."

Seriously though, how would non-verbal communication work, when it's been hard enough getting players and devs on the same page through devblogs, Ask Cryptic's and ever rarer forum appearances?
Reave

Last edited by hrisvalar; 10-12-2012 at 07:46 PM. Reason: 5 million EC for whoever brings me the head of Grammar
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 987
# 36
10-13-2012, 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hrisvalar View Post
Nothing in that quote was me stating any wants, and I have no idea what an opportunity cost is, so... yyyeah... *backs away slowly*
Think about the thread. I was countering your counter points to Leviathan. Thus, that statement was defending leviathan by countering your logical fallacy. I forget specifically what its called, but its along the lines of "just because I'm X, doesn't mean my arguments about X are invalid".
Quote:
Now if I'd asked for a Veteran Exocomp bridge officer (HINT!) that would've taken an isometric f-ton of time
How do you know that. By all regards, you view porting prexisting art assets as taking no time.
Quote:
cause even if you leave out any and all customization, you have to figure out if it needs to be equipped with armor and weapons or shields and if so, how those'll display and behave in combat
Armor only shows on Standard Fed species to begin with, the Exocomp would just display with no armor. Weapons would have an invisible flag, and mount such that the animation firing points sits at the nose.
Quote:
Exocomps aren't supposed to be able to speak
Exocomps replicate whatever hardware is necessary. They can easily replicate speakers and download speech software.
Quote:
Well, now I don't have to anymore, do I? Oh and by the way, I lulz only ironiclulzly. It's both amusing and depressing that you're factoring in failure ahead of time, though.
Its called heading off a "point/argument" that you know WILL come up ahead of time. Its done all the time. Being able to predict what your opponent will say makes your side of a debate far easier.
Quote:
I suppose I can't, but I didn't really mean either of those reputations specifically. A starfleet veteran from the Romulans would be kind of... suspicious.
Why? The Romulans are splintered, and we already have several Romulan doffs.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 688
# 37
10-14-2012, 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault
Think about the thread. I was countering your counter points to Leviathan. Thus, that statement was defending leviathan by countering your logical fallacy. I forget specifically what its called, but its along the lines of "just because I'm X, doesn't mean my arguments about X are invalid".
I can't think about the thread, I haven't memorized it. I have read back though, that works too (somewhat) and my best guess is that you are saying one, or two, of two things:

First, that somehow by admitting ahead of time I'm no expert in the field, rather than saying "If I'm wrong, here's probably why..." I'm saying "I don't know, but you'd better believe me!". I did not tack on any disclaimer regarding my own ignorance on the inner workings of the MMO industry to help my own argument. I can't imagine how it would've.

Secondly, the 'wants' and 'opportunity cost' thing from a bit back, which you are yet to define any further, seems to (again, my best guess) try and put me on the spot for suggesting things that would cost money to do, while I'm calling out Levi on making similar suggestions in regard to his veteran boff variations. The difference here is that I'm not the one advocating A) an appeasement and B) citing low to no costs as the reason for chosing the means of said appeasement to be the conversion veteran bridge officer. It was Levi who appeared to have his heart set on the CVBO, and used "It's cheap." as justification for that cause, while in actuality not letting cost get in the way of adding on to the wishlist.

While yes, low costs are a benefit if you're going to do something, especially if there's no other considerations to take into account (and for the CVBO I believe there are), that's the thing. I've used the qualifier IF. If Cryptic wants to try to fix this with a new bauble, then... etc.

My perspective is this: Cryptic can take the injury [any bad blood from the LTS/Vet sale] and let it heal of its own accord, or they invest a couple of dollars in a bandaid [creating some kind of token replacement] which may or may not do anything, or pick up the gun and shoot itself in the foot again for free [compound the mistake by repeating it].

That choice is entirely up to them. I've no preference regarding the first two options. I just think it would be remarkably unwise to go for door number three.

And if I misunderstood, and you meant something else, I hereby formally throw in the towel on this matter. I've edited this section entirely too often already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault
How do you know that. By all regards, you view porting prexisting art assets as taking no time. Armor only shows on Standard Fed species to begin with, the Exocomp would just display with no armor. Weapons would have an invisible flag, and mount such that the animation firing points sits at the nose. Exocomps replicate whatever hardware is necessary. They can easily replicate speakers and download speech software.
Not quite correct. I view it as taking relatively little time compared to creating new art assets. But in the case of an exocomp, even if they had to create it from scratch now, the art assets are probably among the less time intensive things required. The armor appearance answer is a fairly obvious one, but does that mean you're going to be slotting armor meant for a humanoid biped onto a Beagle-sized flying traffic cone in the paper doll? Likewise for weapons. Appearance wise nothing will change, but what weapons could it equip? Do we virtually duct-tape whatever we have laying around the armory to its side ("Oh look, an exocomp with a phaser pistol! It thinks its people! That's so cute! Hey watch where you poin-" TSSSH), do we need to create some regular weapon knockoff exocomp-only (like shuttle-only) weapons/equipment, or are the exocomp's armor, shields and weapons integrated and unchangable - or worse yet, auto-changable, as exocomps do, to become whatever the situation most calls for? Would be cool, but not easy. As for the electronic voicebox, I suppose it's one explanation, one I can imagine Cryptic might go for (we do have replica starships afterall), but personally I think making them talk takes away some of what makes exocomps unique. (That's me splitting hairs though. Cause I'd have no trouble, at all, with the idea of an exocomp projecting holographic messages, or texting a PADD/tricorder, which ingame would be indistinguishable from regular speech anyway.)

You did though forget to cover how these things would go about manning a station on your bridge. Seems simple enough. Then again, a lot of Boffs and players can't even sit right yet. The one good bit of news is that exocomps are all the same size, and so character customization isn't the big problem it's been there. Still, they'd probably need to work up an invisible box, where the exocomp sits at torso-level, which would then bend at its invisible knees to sit in chairs, but somehow can't put the exocomp into its full, upright traffic cone position if it is knocked on it's invisible hindquarters by a grenade, pulsewave, sniperbolt or melee attack. It'd probably at least need to wobble a little to distract from the awkward trajectory, and I can't say with certainty if Frenchy (cause it doesn't speak, it's stuck in an invisible box, and mimes are solely to blame on France) would get struck by successful weapons hits on its body if it's in said invisible box. I never paid such close attention to where shots hit. If it's just the torso it should be fine. If not, add it to the workload.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault
Its called heading off a "point/argument" that you know WILL come up ahead of time. Its done all the time. Being able to predict what your opponent will say makes your side of a debate far easier.
Familiar with the concept, still though, how did you know the point would come up? Cause it always comes up? Cause people go there a lot? Why is that then? I can assure you, critical posters didn't go and randomly made something up that then caught on. Or at least, I don't think we did. I don't go to all the meetings anymore. Unfortunately, unless you're prepared to press the position that your opponent is making the claim falsely, when you preempt a claim like that, you're really making it for them.

And I really wish that you hadn't. Cause it might've saved this thread a cheap shot. Once it's dangled in front of me, I am powerless to stop myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atatassault
Why? The Romulans are splintered, and we already have several Romulan doffs.
We're clearly thinking about different things. I didn't dismiss the possibility of a Romulan Boff. It seems like a fairly obvious choice, as far as possible rewards of a Romulan reputation system goes. I was talking specifically about a starfleet veteran. Such as the one Levi is trying to hand out.

Romulans have had a history of surgically altering 'guests', brainwashing them to pilot drones or assassinate dignitaries for them, and growing evil spares who need your blood to survive in vats. Oh, and the crossbred from captivity ones aren't completely safe to pet either. If the Romulans presented me with a starfleet officer to join my crew, who I'd never seen before, or looked suspiciously like me or one of my crew, he or she would spend the first two months of their service on the Salah ad-Din in sickbay...

"Just a few more tests, Lieutenant. It's not that I don't trust you. It's that I don't trust the Romulans... and for all I know, you might be one. Shoot him if he tries to leave again."
Reave

Last edited by hrisvalar; 10-14-2012 at 07:27 PM.
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