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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 152
The community cried foul when we saw some of the set bonuses from the lobi-store items, fearing that they'd be too good. Happily the temporal backstep got reduced in effectiveness somewhat to only seven seconds, and it's to the point where I'll admit it isn't a game-breaking ability. The Mannheim Device is terrible in PvP since, to the RP'ers delight, shooting the past copy damages the future ones, giving a quick kill against the user by targeting the past clone. On their own merits, the lobi-store weapons / consoles aren't game-breaking. I do for the record think that they're too good, especially with the console giving similar critical bonuses to the borg one, and stacking with it, and the secondary effects of the disruption device could be reduced a bit. Overall I don't have TOO many gripes with any individual item.

What is not acceptable though, are the powers granted by the set completion bonuses. Let's look at them one at a time:

1. Two-Piece Lobi Set Bonus: Buff to Chroniton Damage. Chrontion torps do so little damage that this isn't worth a second glance.

2. Three-Piece Lobi Set Bonus: AoE Slow / CD reduction & Self Acceleration. This is an extremely powerful and (to my mind) overly strong ability. Considering the ability of the Wells Class to stick on an enemy in PvP, this allows a captain to put an unclearable sub-nuke cooldown extension on an enemy. This puts a serious crimp in the healing abilities of support ships, and is equally deadly to escorts because of the unresistable movement debuffs. Considering the cooldown on this power (2 minutes, because it reduces it's own cd), it is simply too good a debuff. The degree to which it reduces your own cooldowns, particularly for powerful abilities like SNB is equally concerning. My suggestion would be to alter the power so that it ONLY affects bridge officer abilities (just like photonic officer) and to make the slow / cd extension field ineffective against players somehow.

3. Two-Piece Timship Set Bonus: There are a number of problems with the 'Time Freeze' power. Firstly, the fact that you can lock out an enemy healer without firing a shot is concerning. What's worse though are the offensive applications, since only players, instead of other entities, are frozen. Specifically, it makes tri-cobalt mines insanely good by overcoming their inherent balancing drawbacks. You fly next to someone, throw them in a tractor to hold them still relative to you for a second, drop a tricobalt mine pattern, then hit the backstep ability. They're frozen for seven seconds, and during that time, the mine pattern finishes it's dispersal, arms, and begins homing in on the target. When you're 'unfrozen', you're at zero throttle with a tricobalt mine right next to your hull. Instant death frequently follows. Albeit unblanced, the five-minute cd makes it less concerning than the three-piece bonus mentioned above.

Borticus, I appreciate that everyone is extremely busy with S7 stuff, but could you please take a minute or two and add these items to the list of things which need a balance pass when dev time is available? Thanks!
12th Fleet | Sad Pandas | Starfleet M.A.C.O.
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 242
# 2
10-14-2012, 10:36 PM
1. you only get the buff from the 3-P warfare set if your in a temp ship.
2. the cool downs are very long and drawn out.
3. The temprial bubble dose hold mines.
4. An easy way to get around the 3-P warfarin set is to use APO.
5. To use this combo you have to take up 2 weapon slots, 3 if you want to use the 2-P warfarin set boost (anyone who has played for more then a day knows that chronos are used for the debuffs.
6. If you want the bubble effect you have to use a useless console. So that's 2 slots gone + 1 more slot gone I you want to use the 3-P warfair set.
So no don't need this it's already fine the way it is. Also please don't go saying something is oped when you don't even know how it works. My guess is you don't even have the set or the ship.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 3
10-14-2012, 10:43 PM
The TKC is neat, because it gives ships with too many ENG or SCI slots something to boost their DPS with. And if you have torps and polarons in your build, you can also add Rule 62 into the mix.

Get 2 set bonus on the TW set and you can run Chronitons at whoopass capacity. I'm currently using TKC, R62 and ASM together with Breen 2-set for some hard-hitting RRTTs on top of my polarons. Would do more damage if I collected a whole set of polarized disruptors.

To get out of time warp, use ICC. Save the ICC specifically for timewarp. You'd sacrifice only 1 cooldown to run for safety, and still have access to APO or EM.

Timewarp is OP, but it also gave ICC the balance pass it needed to be returned to PVP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Comm. Pion
What should I wish upon the endless universe;
To be able to smile and forgive everything;
That's right, if we light up the dream in our hearts without averting our eyes;
We should be able to walk whatever tomorrow comes...

I am V. Adm. Kha Yuung, and I approve of this message.

Last edited by khayuung; 10-14-2012 at 11:04 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,737
# 4
10-14-2012, 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpack12c View Post
So no don't need this it's already fine the way it is. Also please don't go saying something is oped when you don't even know how it works. My guess is you don't even have the set or the ship.
Yeah, running Alhena and other PvE content needs these bonuses. It's too hard otherwise. Those evil Traelus ships with buff and resist stackings just scare me.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 151
# 5
10-14-2012, 11:08 PM
Hate when people who dont even own something cry for nerfs. The abilities are good for a reason, how expensive they are to get with all the lobi's, dont go crying for nerf just because you cant get them or dont want to spend the money. My time ship is good, but to certain players in pvp i still get my ass handed to me if they decide to come after me. Sci ships have enough drawbacks to them, now if the wells had 4 front and rear weapons maybe then some complaining would be valid on its abilities, but it doesnt. Now you want to talk about nerfs, lets talk about tactical captains and the one hit wonders they can pull off
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 668
# 6
10-14-2012, 11:12 PM
Naldaron has the set and the ship... I think he might have multiples of the ship as well....

I own 1 wells time ship... 1 klink version... and 1 mobius destroyer....

The set is busted to all hell... what a complete balance destroying piece of crap.
If you need proof that its unbalanced... I'm sure we could get a Pandas/Critz 5 man sci ship team together fore you complete with 5 sets... and end the match 15-0 with zero healing on our side... cause honestly every time you come in we'll just freeze and tric bomb you to death. lol

The most hillarious part... the sci time ship completely 100% replaces the now completely junk orb ship... you would think they would at least wait 2 or 3 lock boxes in to completely obsolete a ship... I have a couple orbs... but man if I had dished out serious coin for them and I'm sure some people did I would be livid. lol
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,764
# 7
10-14-2012, 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan512 View Post
Hate when people who dont even own something cry for nerfs. The abilities are good for a reason, how expensive they are to get with all the lobi's, dont go crying for nerf just because you cant get them or dont want to spend the money. My time ship is good, but to certain players in pvp i still get my ass handed to me if they decide to come after me. Sci ships have enough drawbacks to them, now if the wells had 4 front and rear weapons maybe then some complaining would be valid on its abilities, but it doesnt. Now you want to talk about nerfs, lets talk about tactical captains and the one hit wonders they can pull off
Mounting the timewarp set on a Temporal Destroyer, plus ASM and R62, creates one P2W alpha-strike from hell.

If you sacrifice the speed burst for a Fleet Defiant, that's an APO3'd CRF2, BO2, HTY2 right in the face, that you can't run from.

Mounting all of these on the TSV has less of an 'effect', but the TD benefit from the set bonus as well, and its an escort. Give that to a tac and I'm actually scared of facing one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Comm. Pion
What should I wish upon the endless universe;
To be able to smile and forgive everything;
That's right, if we light up the dream in our hearts without averting our eyes;
We should be able to walk whatever tomorrow comes...

I am V. Adm. Kha Yuung, and I approve of this message.

Last edited by khayuung; 10-14-2012 at 11:20 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 152
# 8
10-14-2012, 11:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpack12c View Post
1. you only get the buff from the 3-P warfare set if your in a temp ship.
2. the cool downs are very long and drawn out.
3. The temprial bubble dose hold mines.
4. An easy way to get around the 3-P warfarin set is to use APO.
5. To use this combo you have to take up 2 weapon slots, 3 if you want to use the 2-P warfarin set boost (anyone who has played for more then a day knows that chronos are used for the debuffs.
6. If you want the bubble effect you have to use a useless console. So that's 2 slots gone + 1 more slot gone I you want to use the 3-P warfair set.
So no don't need this it's already fine the way it is. Also please don't go saying something is oped when you don't even know how it works. My guess is you don't even have the set or the ship.
1. Irrelevant. The fact that something is over-powered only on a specific ship doesn't mean it's balanced.
2. The cooldown on the slow field is about two minutes after it's own cd-reduction effects are considered. ANYTHING that allows for faster SNB cooldowns has severe pvp balance implications.
3. Does it alter their arm time? I don't belive so.
4. Okay, Attack Pattern Omega helps escorts get out of the field. What about all the rest of the ships?
5. You do have to take up weapons slots, and they aren't bad weapons to slot.
6. What useless console? You mean that one that gives similar +crit bonuses to the assimilated module AND a respectable turn rate buff? And it's "warfare", not "warfair"

I've seen it in action, I've used the time ship, I've chatted with friends who have the full set. Before folks go crying that I don't know what I'm talking about, or don't understand pvp well enough to know when something is or is not too good take a look at which fleet tag I'm flying (that purple one in my sig) and ask whether that's a fleet full of noobie pvp'ers or ones that actually understand the game.

As to the silly "I paid lots of money for it, therefore it should be super-powerful" poster; I don't give a crap how much you paid for your shiny stuff, I want balanced pvp where particular abilities don't utterly dominate because they weren't designed with balance as a primary consideration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan512
My time ship is good, but to certain players in pvp i still get my ass handed to me if they decide to come after me.
Very true. I'm one of those players. To be blunt, it's not players like you who I worry about when it comes to toys like this, it's what happens when someone from the Pandas or Critz gets a hold of one of those timeships, puts the lobi set on it, and uses it to the fullest potential.

@Husanak: I still fly my weaver a good bit; with two lt cmdr engineers, I can out-heal most cruisers, and the maneuverability isn't a problem for Scramble 3, the jump console takes care of sub-nuke alignment since I don't need tactical slots while running Chronitons.
12th Fleet | Sad Pandas | Starfleet M.A.C.O.

Last edited by naldoran; 10-14-2012 at 11:57 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 145
# 9 i cant agree
10-15-2012, 12:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by naldoran View Post
The community cried foul when we saw some of the set bonuses from the lobi-store items, fearing that they'd be too good. Happily the temporal backstep got reduced in effectiveness somewhat to only seven seconds, and it's to the point where I'll admit it isn't a game-breaking ability. The Mannheim Device is terrible in PvP since, to the RP'ers delight, shooting the past copy damages the future ones, giving a quick kill against the user by targeting the past clone. On their own merits, the lobi-store weapons / consoles aren't game-breaking. I do for the record think that they're too good, especially with the console giving similar critical bonuses to the borg one, and stacking with it, and the secondary effects of the disruption device could be reduced a bit. Overall I don't have TOO many gripes with any individual item.

What is not acceptable though, are the powers granted by the set completion bonuses. Let's look at them one at a time:

1. Two-Piece Lobi Set Bonus: Buff to Chroniton Damage. Chrontion torps do so little damage that this isn't worth a second glance.

2. Three-Piece Lobi Set Bonus: AoE Slow / CD reduction & Self Acceleration. This is an extremely powerful and (to my mind) overly strong ability. Considering the ability of the Wells Class to stick on an enemy in PvP, this allows a captain to put an unclearable sub-nuke cooldown extension on an enemy. This puts a serious crimp in the healing abilities of support ships, and is equally deadly to escorts because of the unresistable movement debuffs. Considering the cooldown on this power (2 minutes, because it reduces it's own cd), it is simply too good a debuff. The degree to which it reduces your own cooldowns, particularly for powerful abilities like SNB is equally concerning. My suggestion would be to alter the power so that it ONLY affects bridge officer abilities (just like photonic officer) and to make the slow / cd extension field ineffective against players somehow.

3. Two-Piece Timship Set Bonus: There are a number of problems with the 'Time Freeze' power. Firstly, the fact that you can lock out an enemy healer without firing a shot is concerning. What's worse though are the offensive applications, since only players, instead of other entities, are frozen. Specifically, it makes tri-cobalt mines insanely good by overcoming their inherent balancing drawbacks. You fly next to someone, throw them in a tractor to hold them still relative to you for a second, drop a tricobalt mine pattern, then hit the backstep ability. They're frozen for seven seconds, and during that time, the mine pattern finishes it's dispersal, arms, and begins homing in on the target. When you're 'unfrozen', you're at zero throttle with a tricobalt mine right next to your hull. Instant death frequently follows. Albeit unblanced, the five-minute cd makes it less concerning than the three-piece bonus mentioned above.

Borticus, I appreciate that everyone is extremely busy with S7 stuff, but could you please take a minute or two and add these items to the list of things which need a balance pass when dev time is available? Thanks!


If anything i find the set bonuses very underpowered. I tend to do much better in the fleet ships as opposed to the Lockbox ships and this is no exception. Instead of trying to make the wells a viable "time to get serious" ship im simply trying to have fun with it and making it as time themed as possible despite the loss of effectiveness. So its chronitons for fun. The cool downs render abilities impractical for them to be any advantage whatsoever over a Hibert cookie cutter ship. On the other hand since i have relegated it to a "for fun" ship, nerf it more if you must...


p.s. i should add im not a PVP type and only do them for fun the odd time. I do have a question for the PVP crowd. Is there no way to filter what type of ships you want to fight? Would that not solve some of theses over-powered/under-powered arguments?

Last edited by mbomberdavid; 10-15-2012 at 12:23 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 152
# 10
10-15-2012, 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbomberdavid View Post
If anything i find the set bonuses very underpowered. I tend to do much better in the fleet ships as opposed to the Lockbox ships and this is no exception. Instead of trying to make the wells a viable "time to get serious" ship im simply trying to have fun with it and making it as time themed as possible despite the loss of effectiveness. So its chronitons for fun. The cool downs render abilities impractical for them to be any advantage whatsoever over a Hibert cookie cutter ship. On the other hand since i have relegated it to a "for fun" ship, nerf it more if you must...
You do understand the balance implications of a significantly lowered recharge time for sub-nucleonic beam, right?

As to those cooldowns; when two AAA-class pvp teams meet, it's often 2-5 minutes between kills because you have to line up all the alphas, nukes and scans to get a kill at all. On those timescales, these cooldowns are quite workable.
12th Fleet | Sad Pandas | Starfleet M.A.C.O.
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