Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 609
# 61
10-15-2012, 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Technically you can't break balance for something as retardedly easy as PvE (with the exception of NWS)
Another point to be made here is, the limitations you are placing on PvE by not attempting to make PvE too hard, or too easy, whilst "maintaining" PvP balance.

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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,938
# 62
10-15-2012, 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
I believe my data is not as bad as you suspect. In fact I'm beginning to see why cryptic doesn't seem to care about balance and doesn't take our talk of excessive healing and pet spam serious: it's simply not visible in the averaged data.

Maybe I'm still looking at the wrong things to detect these issues, but I'm fairly certain that there is a huge gap between matches with equally matched sides (the ones we remember the most clearly and which show us the decline of pvp balance) and the average pug matches where a single good player can turn the tide because the average player has vastly less damage or healing than us few dedicated pvpers
this would explain a lot
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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 230
# 63
10-15-2012, 05:04 PM
What do you think are sensible values to decide whether an encounter is a pvp match and whether it has ended and a new encounter begins?

I want to do some per-match parsing of durations and total damage/healing values. For this I need to divide my logs into individual encounters and try to discard things like STFs and random noise from things like weird events on ESD.

Currently I'm using 45s of no events as an indicator that the previous encounter has ended and a new match has begun. And I discard all encounters with less than 7 players (because 6 = 5 + [Pet Spam] could indicate an STF).

Ideas? Comments?


(Once we settle on some way to cut the logs into encounters, we can move towards Top100 DPS lists...)
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,743
# 64
10-15-2012, 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mewi View Post
I'm pretty sure I just quoted the exact text of what a dev just said. And I'm pretty sure that is what they are trying to do. It is obvious, when you place the facts behind it, they state "We want everyone to have fun with x y z skill and we don't want to hinder x y z skill for the sake of PvP" yet hinder MANY skills based on the fact that they are trying to keep PvE balance intact. Hence logic fallacy, hence that is what they are maintaining, a massive logic fallacy.

the game mechanics cannot support balance on both ends, the game mechanics need to have separate calculations in order to ever hope to have true game balance.

"It freaks me out" it isn't that scary, or difficult to comprehend, as long as cryptic is open about the differences between the calculations then it is EASY to figure out.

The changes aren't being proposed like "In PvE this does an explosion, and in PvP this does a Beam." The underlining mechanic is the same, only the damage balance is different, or heal balance, yadda yadda.

... if that freaks you out, then I'm sure there are some single player games you could be playing ....
It takes them months to adjust one power. With that reputation the likelihood of ever creating a tree with separate balanced powers for PvE and PvP is not high.

And besides, unless they revamp the way the "AI" in this game react to you, you would never ever have a need to account for PvE balance. It's already trivial to deal with it, outside of a few situations.

As an example, it's not like nerfing TacTeam is going to render PvE superhard for the majority of people. Most of these people don't even run it for their fail setups, let alone change power settings from default. A balance pass is not likely to hurt them in anyway.

So why bother?

And lastly most PvPers (not you) on these forums play other games for singleplayer, because this game's singleplayer is boring and easy.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 609
# 65
10-15-2012, 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
It takes them months to adjust one power. With that reputation the likelihood of ever creating a tree with separate balanced powers for PvE and PvP is not high.
Incompetence is no excuse and excusing them for past conduct, is not helping the situation in the present.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
And besides, unless they revamp the way the "AI" in this game react to you, you would never ever have a need to account for PvE balance. It's already trivial to deal with it, outside of a few situations.
Again, unless you manage game balances properly, you can't "revamp" other aspects to be more challenging without completely breaking other parts of the game, while making an attempt in advancement with new "Improved" content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
As an example, it's not like nerfing TacTeam is going to render PvE superhard for the majority of people. Most of these people don't even run it for their fail setups, let alone change power settings from default. A balance pass is not likely to hurt them in anyway.
I never once promoted nerfing TactTeam, where you got this assumption is beyond me.

Edit: I skim read past "as an example" but again I made my point already, above this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
So why bother?

And lastly most PvPers (not you) on these forums play other games for singleplayer, because this game's singleplayer is boring and easy.
Because I can bother, because having an opinion and stating it clearly is relevant to my person, as your opinion is relevant to your person.

Also please don't modify the color of my text if you want a response, it was shear luck that I even bothered to read who you were quoting.

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Last edited by mewi; 10-15-2012 at 09:57 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 66
10-15-2012, 11:36 PM
I just skimmer throught this thread.

The numbers you're showing ar just for the "capacity refill", right? That makes them pretty insignificant, unless the ship they're cast on is carrying resists. (EPtoS and/or ES)

I've always been wondering about the resists... Tooltip state EPtoS1 give 20-something resist, let's say 25% for the example. This should in turn mean that your 10k shield facing would drop in the time a 12.5k facing would. But it doesn't. I don't have the numbers, but clearly and without doubt, it doesn't.... If it did, it would mean that hitting a 2.5k sci team sometimes during the attack would allow your shields to last just as long as EPtoS does... Sure, there is a little added resistance from the 20 extra shield power, but this is barely noticeable when acheived just by power settings.

If anything, I'd say that even the weakest EPtoS makes your shields last at least twice as long as un-buffed shields. Does anyone have any numbers on this?I'd love to see some figures showing how much damage it takes to break a unbuffed shield vs. a EPtoS buffed shield.

I guess what i'm trying to say is: The capacity heal has to be extreme to have any significance at all without resists going. The only heal we have that delivers enough capacity to stand on it's own, is BFI-doff. And even this one would be less than OP if all it did was instant refill all your facings to max. The problem is it gives you a heal like a sci-team every second for the duration.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 67
10-15-2012, 11:53 PM
to work out the effects, add EPTS to base sheild resistance, divide by 100, (so you have a decimal), then deduct that value from 1 and divide your sheild capacity by that number.

So EPtS1 + 125 sheild power allows hust 45% of damage through or your sheilds are 2.2 times stronger.

n your example, asuming just a 25% resistance from EPTS and no base resistance it would raise a 10K sheild to 13.33K
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,318
# 68
10-16-2012, 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fakehilbert View Post
What do you think are sensible values to decide whether an encounter is a pvp match and whether it has ended and a new encounter begins?
[...]
Currently I'm using 45s of no events as an indicator that the previous encounter has ended and a new match has begun. And I discard all encounters with less than 7 players (because 6 = 5 + [Pet Spam] could indicate an STF).

Ideas? Comments?


(Once we settle on some way to cut the logs into encounters, we can move towards Top100 DPS lists...)
That depends a bit on your style of play, but are 45 seconds really the minimum pause between matches when you play? Shouldn't that number be higher, with "extremely long matchs" generated that way needing to be looked at manually?

Maybe you could filter out STFs with discarding all matches that have Borg in them? What does the raw data (in text form) look like in your files?
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 735
# 69
10-16-2012, 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carl103 View Post
n your example, asuming just a 25% resistance from EPTS and no base resistance it would raise a 10K sheild to 13.33K
This is the theory... but I'm confident it does more! A unbuffed shield, my escort burns through in 1 second. With EPtoS it may well take 10 seconds. This is not explained by a 25% resist...
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,318
# 70
10-16-2012, 02:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dassemsto View Post
This is the theory... but I'm confident it does more! A unbuffed shield, my escort burns through in 1 second. With EPtoS it may well take 10 seconds. This is not explained by a 25% resist...
Didn't Borticus state somewhere that shield resistances are computed additively, not multiplicatively? That would explain your observation (which I share), with shield damage resistance coming from energy levels, MACO, EPTS, possibly TSS adding up to 80, maybe even 90%...
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