Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 31
10-17-2012, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carl103 View Post
But APB doesn't apply a -X% resisatnce debuff. it reduces resisance rating by 30/40/50. -50 resistance rating in a best case scenario is only -32.8%. If the target has 100 resistance rating by defualt it's only a -20% in effect, (it reduces the actual resistance % by 18%, which adds upto anet +20% damage intake)
There is a marked difference in the mechanics of Disruptor Procs and APB.

Assuming we're discussing resistance magnitude: a best case scenario would see a -50 Debuff impact upon a foe with a positive magnitude value of +25 Resistance (or ~20% after DR) the debuff would negate this, and bring the current resistance value well into the negatives (again, ~-20% DR). For a base damage hit of 100, this would mean that foe would go from receiving 80 damage to receiving 120 damage - for a relative increase in damage received of 120/80=150%.

Concerning real in-game performance, I suggest you closely examine the resistance magnitude levels of PVE foes. They're noticeably less than what players can typically achieve.


Quote:
Also you clearly don't know how the borg 3pc works. Anything that cuases any oen sheild facing to fall below the threshold can proc it. I can confirm from my own experiance that i have seen tac team re-distribute proc it.
Before making assumptions and accusations about someone else's knowledge, I suggest you take a moment to think carefully about how power interactions function.

Consider that the Borg 3-piece Proc has a 10% chance to trigger when you dip below 20% shield strength on a single facing. This means that it does nothing until one of your shield facings drops below 20% strength. Tactical Team works by balancing your shield facings.

With Tac team:
(i) the facing under fire will effectively drop 4 times slower, therefore reducing the chance that the Proc will have an opportunity to kick in.
(ii) under heavy fire, all four facings will dip below 20% at roughly the same time due to the constant shield balancing. The proc can only trigger a maximum of one time and then enters a short cooldown - therefore instead of having four individual 10% chances of procing (1-(0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9)=34.4% total chance that it triggers at least once) it has one 10% chance of procing.

That isn't to say that you shouldn't run Tac Team when using a 3-piece Borg set, but that doing so reduces how much benefit the Borg 3-piece Proc can give you. Technically the most effective method of using this Borg proc is actually to continually divert power away from an unused shield facing rather than constantly rebalance your shields... and doing so grants a large benefit when facing tough immobile opponents.

Conversely, the Borg 2-piece Proc has a (albeit low) chance to trigger any time you receive damage, regardless of your current Hull strength or Shield Facings.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 10-17-2012 at 12:38 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 32
10-17-2012, 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bludagger View Post
Seems the other two missed your question Retro, I can offer my opinion on what I have seen work best for escorts and what I have used myself in my own personal tests.

I would recommend that you use MACO, which for a escort build offers the better of the two.
Seconded. MACO shield, with Borg Engines/Console is generally the optimum setup for PVE Fedside. The 4th Piece can be the MACO Deflector (for additional utility/DPS from the universal power recharge time reduction) or the Borg Deflector (for additional survivability).

Note that there are changes on Tribble to the Borg Console which will make this setup unusable - the Borg Equipment is all being upgraded to Mark XI/XII, and the console is becoming part of it's own seperate 3-piece set, so going forward, the best combination will likely be MACO shield, and Borg Deflector/Engines.

Klingon Side, substitute the Honor Guard Shield for the MACO one. Note though that the Honor Guard 2-piece bonus is one of the best in the game, so it'll be a tougher choice which 2-piece bonus to drop (Honor Guard or Borg) if the Tribble changes go live...


[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]

Last edited by maelwy5; 10-17-2012 at 12:39 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 33
10-17-2012, 03:51 PM
Quote:
There is a marked difference in the mechanics of Disruptor Procs and APB.

Assuming we're discussing resistance magnitude: a best case scenario would see a -50 Debuff impact upon a foe with a positive magnitude value of +25 Resistance (or ~20% after DR) the debuff would negate this, and bring the current resistance value well into the negatives (again, ~-20% DR). For a base damage hit of 100, this would mean that foe would go from receiving 80 damage to receiving 120 damage - for a relative increase in damage received of 120/80=150%.

Concerning real in-game performance, I suggest you closely examine the resistance magnitude levels of PVE foes. They're noticeably less than what players can typically achieve.

1. I just went in game and tested APB in a chalange. APB1 reduced total resistance from 18.6% to -1.1%

And ABP changed that to -7.7%.

That means that APB1 provided a +23% damage boost while ABP2 provided a +31% boost. If it worked the way you claimed it should have been dropping the resistance to -11.4 and -21.4% respectivlly for a +36.5% and +48.7% respectivlly. Very diffrent numbers.

2. Dosen't matter if tac team draisn them below one at a time or drops them below all at once each facing has one chance to trigger it. Better yet if it didn't proc you can hit EPTS, rise the 3 facings back above 20%, then when tac team drains them below again 3 more chances to proc.

yes it can only go off once, but here's the catch, tac team or no you will get so many chances to proc it that your ALLWAYS limited by the global CD. With tac team you enshure you never have it go off because a burst drains just one facing, (wasting the heal), and the multipule chances per heal drasticlly increases the chances of it going off as often as the internal CD on the heal, (so long as your under fire severe enough to need it).

@bludagger: i'm pretty sure i did anwser that question...
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 34
10-17-2012, 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carl103 View Post
Very diffrent numbers.
Yes, and none of them contradict the text you quoted, even though you're performing testing versus a player and not a PVE critter.

Now try it again, this time with Disruptors (a good example, because their debuff isn't going to be limited by any unknown variables - namely your Attack Patterns skill).

Watch what happens to the Disruptor Resistance value of your target whenever the Disruptor Proc occurs.

I'll give you a mild spoiler: most resistances will drop to roughly what you'd expect, but the potency of the debuff on disruptor resistance will be quadrupled.

You'll also notice, depending on the thoroughness of the testing performed, that Identical Debuff Procs from different sources will stack with each other on the same target. In the case of disruptors you can even stack multiple debuffs yourself - one from each fighter wing as well as one from your own weaponry.

Damage resistance debuffs have been out of whack for months, and the biggest draw is that they act as a damage multiplier for all sources of damage.

The bottom line is that if you have a choice between taking a BOFF ability which grants you +50% of one type of damage for 15 seconds (CRF3) or an ability which effectively grants a similar bonus to your entire team for all types of damage (APB3) - then it's pretty clear which is more beneficial. At that point it really doesn't matter if you're talking about Raw Resistance debuffs or Resistance Magnitude debuffs, because with five teammates (plus pets, Plus deployable damage patches, etc) all firing on a single target even a bonus of 10% after-DR would beat the first option.

Heck, if you're running a Torpedo or carrying Fighters/Gravity Wells/Mines/etc then APB3 is often going to be a better option than CRF3 on STFs even if you have no teammates with you at all. The sole weakness of APB3 in PVE is that it doesn't do much good against shields. And on STFs, shields are only really worth mentioning in exactly one encounter: Donatra.


Quote:
2. Dosen't matter if tac team draisn them below one at a time or drops them below all at once each facing has one chance to trigger it.
Examine the activation requirements of that set bonus closely.

It functions as a passive ability which performs a check every tick to see if any of a certain set of conditions are true. It has a 10% chance to trigger if [any of the the owner's shield facing have dropped below 20%]. Therefore, if multiple shield facings drop below 20% at the same time, only one check is performed.

That means ONE chance to proc when shields are being constantly rebalanced with Tac Team. Hence Tac Team has a detrimental effect on the set bonus's uptime, or at the very least a negative synergy exists between the powers.

I suppose if you find your shield power constantly jumping over and under 20% then it could still potentially prove useful. Personally, I rarely find my shield facings dipping that low at all. (And shortly the point will be moot anyway, because nobody will be able to run a 3-piece Borg Set without being forced to take and use the Regenerative Shield Array...)

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 176
# 35
10-17-2012, 07:25 PM
Thank you for all of that...been wondering why karfi is so good and that explanation fits perfectly!

I am using bo1...not bo3.

Issues?

And also....from a proc standpoint....better for dc or DHCs. I am running one of each ATM but I am completely open to trying things out.

Thanks again
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 633
# 36
10-17-2012, 07:46 PM
1. The point i'm making isn't:

Don't bring APB.

It's, AB3 isn't a sufficent improvment over APB1/2 (depending on build depends on where the gap in your abilities falls), to justify it.

There's also the content to consider. STF's benefit far more from APB because there's far more focus fire going on. Fleet actions quicklly turn into mass brawls with everyone splitting all over the place. So even if in ideal circumstances you've got a sufficent boost to make it worth it over your other options, it still may not work out for you in reality. And even then there's the question of how much DPS your doing, the number of STF's where i do 30%+ of the total damage is considrable. Particuarly KDF side where i'm still on normals for them all, (they've been badly ignored since S6 hit).

Your comment about disruptours is intresting btw, gonna have to look into that if i can.

[p.e. magnitude of debuff in tha test was:

APB1:-29.9
APB2:-39.9

2. Do you have a source on that claim abotu a single check as that bears no resembleance to how i'd expect it to function from several diffrent PoV. I'd expect it to check for the "drop through 20% threshold" proc every time it reduces a sheild in strength, sicne their are 3 sheilds and each one is individually reduced i would fully expect it to have a chance to proc on each one, and thats exactly what the text seems to indicate.

Also ancedotally if it works the way you describe then my average proc chance is a LOT higher than 10% becuase it goes off very nearly every time, and if it dosen't a quick sheild heal tends to trip it.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 568
# 37
10-18-2012, 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scbypwr View Post
And also....from a proc standpoint....better for dc or DHCs. I am running one of each ATM but I am completely open to trying things out.

Thanks again

It depends what equipment/abilities you're using.

As I indicated further up the thread, Procs kicks in based on a set chance not per shot, but per weapons cycle - that is, weapon firing plus recharge time. At base, all cannons have identical cycle times, and therefore the Proc rate will be identical. The difference comes when considering the effects of buffs: DHCs have a longer recharge time but shorter activation time than the others. You can reduce either or both the recharge time and activation time to get more procs over time.

With recharge time buffs (example, MACO set 2-piece bonus) DHCs will cycle slightly faster than the rest (~0.1 seconds faster, in this case). With activation time buffs (example: Cannon Rapid Fire) DCs/Cannons/Quad Cannons will be slightly faster (in this case, ~0.4 seconds faster). A lot of people tend to just run CRF constantly and concentrate on single targets, which is where the notion of DCs proccing more often than DHCs comes in (though Cannons, Turrets and the Quad Cannon will all match DCs here). If you're not using CRF (CSV, to spread a proc over an area) then you'll get more milage out of using DHCs and the MACO bonus.



Quote:
Originally Posted by carl103 View Post
The point i'm making isn't: Don't bring APB. It's, AB3 isn't a sufficent improvment over APB1/2
Then I'd love to hear the reasoning behind that point.

I have yet to see a valid argument for taking anything else in the Commander slot over APB3, in terms of additional benefit granted to the team. And Bringing up "KDF" content is interesting, because it raises the issue of multiple Disruptor Procs stacking with APB3 again.

You're correct in that Fleet Content is more of a Free-for-all. It depends how co-ordinated your teammates are whether more than one of you will be shooting at a target. In that case, it would boil down to what sources of damage you alone can bring to the fight. But even Fedside (no disruptor stacking) in my parses, bringing at least one torpedo launcher (or mine, or wing of fighters) makes running APB3 and CRF2 more useful than CRF3 and APB2.


Quote:
Do you have a source on that claim abotu a single check
It's standard passive ability mechanics (one check per X time period - shortest time period possible is one server tick, which traditionally in NCSoft games are slightly over 1/10th of a second), and fairly straightforward to test. But yes, there were a few quotes dating from long before the forum changes. I'll try and dig out the original "Archived Post"s.

[ <<<--- @Maelwys --->>> ]
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 176
# 38
10-18-2012, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maelwy5 View Post
It depends what equipment/abilities you're using.

As I indicated further up the thread, Procs kicks in based on a set chance not per shot, but per weapons cycle - that is, weapon firing plus recharge time. At base, all cannons have identical cycle times, and therefore the Proc rate will be identical. The difference comes when considering the effects of buffs: DHCs have a longer recharge time but shorter activation time than the others. You can reduce either or both the recharge time and activation time to get more procs over time.

With recharge time buffs (example, MACO set 2-piece bonus) DHCs will cycle slightly faster than the rest (~0.1 seconds faster, in this case). With activation time buffs (example: Cannon Rapid Fire) DCs/Cannons/Quad Cannons will be slightly faster (in this case, ~0.4 seconds faster). A lot of people tend to just run CRF constantly and concentrate on single targets, which is where the notion of DCs proccing more often than DHCs comes in (though Cannons, Turrets and the Quad Cannon will all match DCs here). If you're not using CRF (CSV, to spread a proc over an area) then you'll get more milage out of using DHCs and the MACO bonus.
Thank you very much. A very interesting and informative post. It absolutely makes sense why that stuff works when you mentioned as the 'recharge' and the 'cycle' being key.

I typically use APB3, CSV1, Torpedo spread3, and Beam Overload1 in an alpha strike for smashing spawns on kang in cs and probes on gates in kase. The burst fire mode works wonders for me because I want to take those spawns out in close succession. The setup works great when used with or with out gravity well.

I will also use the vent theta radiation console to supplement my other crowd control measures.

I plan on taking a ship and using it for more of a pvp build in the future.

One final question......

polarized disruptor or disruptor?
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,484
# 39
10-19-2012, 01:29 AM
It is best to go with omega in an escort as maco is more for criusers.
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USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9
# 40
10-27-2012, 04:03 AM
Is there a detailed comparison of APB3 vs. the equivalent 3rd level Cannon skill? i.e. Is it better to equip CSV3/lower APB or APB3/lower CSV?
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