Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,063
# 11
10-19-2012, 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
Beyond all that, I'm sure that the internal culture at Cryptic changes the views of those who go work there. Think about it for a minute, they expect their players to be little hamsters and do ever increasing grinds for shinies they still have to pay for! Grinds I'm sure most of them wouldn't even dream of touching. How little must they think of their players! Maybe it wasn't always like that, but I'm sure PWI sent a nice speaker, or group of speakers or trainers that changed their views on what the players are and how the worst aspects of F2P are perfectly justifiable. Or at least made it clear to them how things were going to be from now on and that they had better adapt. After all, they're willing to pay right? No one is "holding a gun to their heads to make them open up their wallets for Zen" right?

A comment on this.

First of all, the internal culture changes the views of those who work there - I am sure of this. However, the thing is, I've been involved in some projects where something similar happened (volunteer, no money involved, just time and love for the project). Those on the "outside" had a drastically different view from those on the "inside" and for things to work many things needed to be kept from those outside. This caused a rift between those inside and outside and made it look like insiders were occasionally making nuts decisions. In fact I have had people comment to /me/ that things I did for it looked strange on the outside but made perfect sense once inside.

Is this the same situation? Probably, to some extent. Is it RIGHT Cryptic is not transparent? Maybe, maybe not, but it's probably a functional necessity from both a business perspective (not every business posts everything about it to the public, after all, even publicly traded companies limit their information outflow), and a game perspective (the people screaming about changes X Y and Z may not realize that it's causing major problems somewhere non-obvious).

However, given he does work for them, and they keep a roof over his head and whatnot, simple fact of the matter is he could be under orders to keep his mouth shut about certain things. This would probably be one of them. There are almost certainly limits to how much he can talk about. I've noticed when devs speak, they try to be friendly but flat-out ignore certain comments. This is probably because they CANNOT speak about them, no matter how rational the question may be or insane the policy change may be. Plus, frankly, the devs in a lot of cases are probably not the ones calling the shots on monetization issues - that's further up the food chain, at least in a general sense. It could well be the dev negotiated some manager down from something even WORSE because said manager didn't put the pieces together that this might drive away half the players in a couple of weeks.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 476
# 12
10-19-2012, 05:40 PM
I actually don't see much problem with it. Sure, existing MkXII holders will have to grind all the way to get special doffs, but they don't have to grind any farther than someone else would to get those things.

The only thing they are missing is the 'on the way' rewards of the items they already own. So sure, the reputation has less to give them, but it isn't any more difficult than for anyone else. And it's not like STF's are the only way to get omega marks.

So all in all, they may already have played stf's a lot and 'put in their time', but it still seems like 'starting fresh' to me, and all they miss out on is stuff they already have. Not to mention that the old Mk XII gear has a great degree of randomness attached to it anyway, so converting it to rep would have great amounts of inequality.



This isn't like someone with a lot of DXP not getting CXP credit when the duty officer system showed up. It's more like someone who, hypothetically, earned a cross-faction boff through an accolade hunt not getting full-tier DXP just because they already have the prize for that tier.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,424
# 13
10-19-2012, 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by red01999 View Post
A comment on this.

First of all, the internal culture changes the views of those who work there - I am sure of this. However, the thing is, I've been involved in some projects where something similar happened (volunteer, no money involved, just time and love for the project). Those on the "outside" had a drastically different view from those on the "inside" and for things to work many things needed to be kept from those outside. This caused a rift between those inside and outside and made it look like insiders were occasionally making nuts decisions. In fact I have had people comment to /me/ that things I did for it looked strange on the outside but made perfect sense once inside.

Is this the same situation? Probably, to some extent.
I'm convinced that this is it.

Quote:
Is it RIGHT Cryptic is not transparent?
Even if it's what puts food in people's mouths, that doesn't make it right. I've worked in places with the disconnect you describe between inside and outside thinking and have come to believe it's both immoral and counterproductive.

That doesn't mean Cryptic needs to disclose everything. It does mean they need to find a way to overcome that gap in practice to justify their right to exist. Putting food on tables and paying for employees' kids' braces and paying investor dividends doesn't justify their right to exist. No company has a right to exist on this basis alone.

It has to be justified through a connection and a reconciliation between their values and their customers' values. That doesn't mean they have to say what their values are or disclose every philosophy or need that drives their actions. It means, in practice, they have to align the values of what they offer with the value that people will spend money to attain.

Quote:
Maybe, maybe not, but it's probably a functional necessity from both a business perspective (not every business posts everything about it to the public, after all, even publicly traded companies limit their information outflow), and a game perspective (the people screaming about changes X Y and Z may not realize that it's causing major problems somewhere non-obvious).
Understood. But when there is a discrepancy, you anticipate and correct for it. And if you claim to pride yourself on openness as a company, you TRUST YOUR CUSTOMERS. And if they have a problem, if they even have to think about your internal philosophy, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

Quote:
However, given he does work for them, and they keep a roof over his head and whatnot, simple fact of the matter is he could be under orders to keep his mouth shut about certain things.
Maybe the problem is with people overvaluing a roof over their head. Consistent and well reasoned principles matter more. They have to. And game design is all about the management, allocation, and application of values and principles in a fair (or at least proportionally rewarding) way. If that's not what you're doing as a game developer, you might want to rethink whether your job is actually game development to begin with or is something else with a fake job title attached.

Quote:
This would probably be one of them. There are almost certainly limits to how much he can talk about.
That's business. That's understandable. The issue is not what he can or can't say about why he and the team do what they do. It's why they do what they do.

Quote:
I've noticed when devs speak, they try to be friendly but flat-out ignore certain comments.
Probably for their own sanity and blood pressure and because of NDAs. And I get that. I can handle an NDA.

What I don't get is why we have a dev nicknamed Tron ("he fights for the user") because ALL DEVS should be Tron. Even when penalizing users, a good developer does it for the greater good of the user. And why "Tron" seems to be the one who is always the one saying that unpopular stuff is non-negotiable.

This is business. Nothing should be non-negotiable unless it overrides a core value. Capitalism is all about everything being negotiable and haggling for the right price.

Quote:
Plus, frankly, the devs in a lot of cases are probably not the ones calling the shots on monetization issues - that's further up the food chain, at least in a general sense.
And that's fine if we're talking C-Store or lockboxes but then as a customer, I want a pipeline to the person making the business decisions. And if this stuff has pervasively shaped all areas of content, I'd be happy to start filing billing tickets in-game and contacting PWE's San Francisco offices with complaints about game content, if all game content is subserviant to a bad monetization model. And I'll urge others to do the same.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,424
# 14
10-19-2012, 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by denizenvi View Post
I actually don't see much problem with it. Sure, existing MkXII holders will have to grind all the way to get special doffs, but they don't have to grind any farther than someone else would to get those things.

The only thing they are missing is the 'on the way' rewards of the items they already own. So sure, the reputation has less to give them, but it isn't any more difficult than for anyone else. And it's not like STF's are the only way to get omega marks.
Less rewarding IS more difficult.

Rewards = Difficulty.

Risk vs. Reward.

It's the core principle on which game design is based.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 15
10-19-2012, 06:16 PM
I'm... I'm really sorry for this, since normally I tend to agree with the OP, but... this time...

I'm sorry, but what's the problem here? If you've got the Mk XII equipment already, what purpose would there be to grandfathering? You've got the top of the top end gear already. There's nothing more to accomplish, unless for whatever reason you want a constant stream of anti-Borg standard gear for the one toon, or if MACO/Omega/Honor Guard visuals are ever turned on for BOffs.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,424
# 16
10-19-2012, 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jexsamx View Post
I'm... I'm really sorry for this, since normally I tend to agree with the OP, but... this time...

I'm sorry, but what's the problem here? If you've got the Mk XII equipment already, what purpose would there be to grandfathering? You've got the top of the top end gear already. There's nothing more to accomplish, unless for whatever reason you want a constant stream of anti-Borg standard gear for the one toon, or if MACO/Omega/Honor Guard visuals are ever turned on for BOffs.
The problem is that there is less reason for doing the grind without also being less grind to do.

And that it's trying to put the exact same old content on life support that the last few major pushes focused on. It's trying to forcefeed STFs back to people, this time with less work and more expense.

They should have exceeded their revenue goals for the Borg STFs or written them off as a loss a long time ago.

It's pushing an over-depreciated asset and this time charging what amounts to real money to do it.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,691
# 17
10-19-2012, 06:57 PM
So you're upset about having to grind out the same as everybody else despite having significantly less reason to do so?

That just presents my same basic question all over again, though. If you don't have to do it anymore... why bother? It's not even like you're earning towards some improved version. It's the same Mk XII stuff.

Something about being upset over a grind for what you already own just isn't making sense to me.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,745
# 18
10-19-2012, 08:01 PM
The thing that bothers me about this new Reputation system, its just another copy and paste of the Fleet System. Cryptic brags about PW giving them more of a team, yet they call this "new" content? Really?

Someone nicely said in another thread, why doesn't this tie in with Diplomacy and make the DOFF system actually functional besides unlocking DOFFs? Why couldn't one's diplomacy ranking unlock new missions or equipment?

But the way it is, it's just more grinding just to unlock gear which cost a massive amounts of Dilithium.



But what infuriates me the most is the Omega System.

First of all, they got rid of the STF Store on DS9 for this new system, which IMHO was a massively stupid idea since it made DS9 relevant. Which in before that, when the STF store was actually at Omega fleet, it made it relevant there as well.

So they should put back the store and somehow make Omega Fleet relevant again.

Secondly, this new system totally ruins people's efforts in getting Elite STF sets. There are still plenty of people who yet to unlock these Elite Sets since they were first introduced in December. So this system is a massive middle finger to them since they have to wait a couple of more months to earn gear. And to add insult to injury, they are forcing players to pay in Dilihtium, which is now needed for DOFFing and Fleet Starbases.


So I really don't think Cryptic thought at all about the players when they made this system. If this game didn't already have enough grinding, they are adding more, reducing our pay (Dilithium), and forcing us to work a game that we supposed to be having fun in.

So Cryptic is shooting themselves in the feet and if they go ahead with Season 7 as is, people will surely leave in droves and never come back. And I won't be too far behind, because Cryptic is obviously running this game into the ground instead of actually trying to make it better.
NO to ARC!

Season 9.5 = STO's NGE is Coming!
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,424
# 19
10-19-2012, 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jexsamx View Post
So you're upset about having to grind out the same as everybody else despite having significantly less reason to do so?

That just presents my same basic question all over again, though. If you don't have to do it anymore... why bother? It's not even like you're earning towards some improved version. It's the same Mk XII stuff.

Something about being upset over a grind for what you already own just isn't making sense to me.
Because there is other stuff at those new tiers too.

And what if you're 2/3rds of the way into collecting a set?

You have a system where someone has to do more to get less if they're already partway through or if they have it all and would like the new rewards.

The grind should be proportional to what you don't already have.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 240
# 20
10-19-2012, 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoleviathan99 View Post
...

IMHO, Cryptic is double-dipping on content by tying Omega Rep to projects that require running OLD STFs and not recognizing the work put forward by people who earned the old gear sets.

IMHO, it is not acceptable for them to refuse to let players double-dip for rewards when they double-dip for content. If these were new STFs for the reward system, it would be one thing. But people with Mk XI and Mk XII items have already run hundreds of STFs and not recognizing that in Omega Fleet reputation SHOULD be up for discussion.

I'm not saying someone with full Mk XII should get FULL Omega rep but considering they're grinding what they ALREADY HAVE in content they have ALREADY DONE many times, the idea that they get nothing for it in the new system is Cryptic double-dipping, while refusing to extend the same courtesy to players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyranger1414 View Post
... The idea is to introduce new grinds every season or so, more than any player can possibly keep up with. They KNOW if they based it off accolades most players would shoot to the top of the rep system right away, how many haven't done all the optionals on elite at least once? Or if they did a 1 for 1 conversion most of us have had several hundred EDCs at one time. His comments about people with MK 12 not having to do anything are most likely wrong. People that have farmed up full MK12 sets tend to be completionists, they will feel compelled to do the Omega rep grind if only for the "passives and power" they cleverly incorporated into it.
Just caught this thread after surfacing for breath from the ballooning behemoth of a thread next door.

I suppose I can be considered one of those 'completionists' for the number of elite sets I've ground to. This was not a grind I did happily or because the content is good. More like grimly in that you stop seeing STFs as fun after the first couple hundred. Anyone who's gone through this knows the feeling, I'll bet. People who knocked off their first 300 months ago and have started doing things like flying intentionally-handicapped fun-build ships, or going all melee on ground missions just to spice up the STFs while they grind them for dilithium.

It wears on you, the Borg Hamster Wheel of STFs does. There's been points lately while aiding my fleet-mates in getting their own elite sets where I think of STFs, cringe and decide, instead, to go curl up with a book. Tonight is one of those nights (once I get back off the 'net). I am not looking forward to the same six STFs for eternity, repackaged and regurgitated under a third system because there hasn't been any time in Cryptic's eternally busy schedule to make something new.

If this reputation system has nothing to justify itself to jaded STF vets burned down on nearly a year of the same six missions, then all the good praise of every dev in Cryptic's STO division won't be enough muster to get them into the Borg Hamster Wheel like before*. Their efforts at making fresh filler content will be wasted.


*...not willingly anyway. Dilithium sinks. God in Heaven...

The Artist Formerly Known As Nikotaka ][ Join Date: Jan 2010
"Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers...?"

Last edited by nikkyvix; 10-19-2012 at 11:00 PM.
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