Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 51
10-28-2012, 03:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by misskorya View Post
I can see that yes, and would this be in addition to the said ability you mentioned earlier? Or in-part of the hybrid would that ability go to console? I don't want to over power the Niagara because she's not going to outpace any of the bigger guns in games, by any means but she would have her advantages certainly.

I would propose that she'd be added as a "Fleet" vessel as well, seeing how her cousin the Cheyenne is listed in as a "Fleet" version. I am certainly aiming to grab the Cheyenne as a "Fleet" since I never grabbed her while leveilng my main.
I'm actually worried this would still be underpowered.
"True" Science ships use their Sensor Analysis ability to gradually increase the damage of all their weapons so eventhaully they reach pretty much cruiser level.

http://www.stowiki.org/Ability:_Sensor_Analysis

It just takes some time.
The "Hybrid" I proposed would lack this yet have only 7 weapons overall.
So this would actually be a somewhat undergunned ship.
As compensation she'd have the added powerbonus I described.
And since console abilities take up a slot I'd say the power bonus can be inherited from the overall classification while the ability can come from a console.

I'm sorry if this didn't become any clearer in my other post.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,922
# 52
10-28-2012, 03:54 AM
It's a nice ship but not cannon

All of it's stats are not cannon

Still a nice ship
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 53
10-28-2012, 04:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1 View Post
It's a nice ship but not cannon

All of it's stats are not cannon

Still a nice ship
The ship is as canon as the Cheyenne.
Stats are at least soft-canon but since the Last Unicorn RPG and STO are very different we can use it as inspiration...or not.
Just like the special ability that I proposed that's pure speculation.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,922
# 54
10-28-2012, 04:36 AM
What movie or series show was it I'n I don't
Remember ever seeing it ?
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 55
10-28-2012, 05:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1 View Post
What movie or series show was it I'n I don't
Remember ever seeing it ?
It was among the models specifically built for the wreckage scene in TNG "The Best of Both Worlds" part 2.

There is an extensive article on the shipsin general here:

http://ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/wolf359.htm

There are additional ones for each individual ship as well but since this thread is primarily about the Niagara this one should suffice for this topic:

http://ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/niagara.htm

Particularly the images where you can see people from the production staff with these ships shows that this is not about some fanfiction stuff.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3
# 56
10-28-2012, 08:22 AM
Just pointing this out Mister. Under your current setup you have the Niagara giving a bonus of +30 power across all systems. Currently the limit is +15 for escorts, science and hybrids, with +20 for cruisers. Its something Cryptic would never go for. And TBH, it would make the ship really op, because if my fitting ideas are on the mark, and considering time on target; it would out DPS anything but escorts and be able to out tank anything currently in game.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 57
10-28-2012, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducesettutamen View Post
Just pointing this out Mister. Under your current setup you have the Niagara giving a bonus of +30 power across all systems. Currently the limit is +15 for escorts, science and hybrids, with +20 for cruisers. Its something Cryptic would never go for. And TBH, it would make the ship really op, because if my fitting ideas are on the mark, and considering time on target; it would out DPS anything but escorts and be able to out tank anything currently in game.
As I already tried to point out, it would only have 7 weapons and no Sensor Analysis (so no 33% bonus over time that counters the fact that Science ships have only 6 weapons).
Did you factor that into your analysis?

And I did not take your BO layout onto consideration, how could I have done so since you posted it after I had posted my idea?

Last edited by misterde3; 10-28-2012 at 08:36 AM.
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3
# 58
10-28-2012, 11:34 AM
Well lets take a comparative look at two tier 5 ships. Lets use the Excelsior refit z-store ship and a DSSV modified to your stats, with both captains having 6 points in each warp core skill. We'll use the balanced power option as the disparity only become greater in other options or custom settings.

We would come out with these power levels.

Excelsior- Weapons 78 / Shield 78 / Engine 78 / Aux 78

Niagara- Weapons 78 / Shield 78 / Engine 83 / Aux 83

Mind you, that you still have the Niagara getting the target subsystems sci ability which effectively increases its attack or defense over time by disabling enemy systems.

Now as far as consoles lets run with stock DSSV consoles for the Niagara, so we come up with this.

Excelsior- Tac 3 / Eng 4 / Sci 2

Niagara- Tac 2 / Eng 3 / Sci 4

Now most people would say that the Excel should out tank the Niagara. However we have to factor in the Niagara's greater base shield strength. Her extra Sci consoles to improve said shield, and her greater engine which gives her a defense bonus from her higher speed. In addition she still has that subsystem targeting and a host of Sci abilities to mitigate damage. Along with increase maneuverability to change shield facings if needed.

Damage wise most would still say the Excelsior has the advantage. Now base, unmodified by power; a standard 7 Mk XII Common beam broadside from the Excel would have 1,232 DPS with consoles to bring that up. Now figuring the standard Sci point your nose and tank and spank tactic. A Niagara with 3 DBB Mk XII Common and 3 Mk XII Common Turrets would have a base DPS of 1,083. Now that 150 DPS disparity would only be increased by the added console on the Excelsior. However the Niagara's tank a spank fighting style would allow it to also keep its Quantum torp in play more often than the Excel. In addition her Sci abilities can take down the enemy shield and keep them held in place to fire on that opening. Damage over time the Niagara would win out.

But just for a second imagine a Niagara in defense mode. You be looking at facing a ship with stats like these.

Weapons 79 / Shields 125 / Engines 65 / Aux 65

Which depending on the captain could be flown like a tank, or a Hvy Escort. That is not a ship I would want to face. Good Sci captains are hard to beat, lets not make bad Sci captains just as capable.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,052
# 59
10-29-2012, 06:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducesettutamen View Post
Well lets take a comparative look at two tier 5 ships. Lets use the Excelsior refit z-store ship and a DSSV modified to your stats, with both captains having 6 points in each warp core skill. We'll use the balanced power option as the disparity only become greater in other options or custom settings.

We would come out with these power levels.

Excelsior- Weapons 78 / Shield 78 / Engine 78 / Aux 78

Niagara- Weapons 78 / Shield 78 / Engine 83 / Aux 83

Mind you, that you still have the Niagara getting the target subsystems sci ability which effectively increases its attack or defense over time by disabling enemy systems.

Now as far as consoles lets run with stock DSSV consoles for the Niagara, so we come up with this.

Excelsior- Tac 3 / Eng 4 / Sci 2

Niagara- Tac 2 / Eng 3 / Sci 4

Now most people would say that the Excel should out tank the Niagara. However we have to factor in the Niagara's greater base shield strength. Her extra Sci consoles to improve said shield, and her greater engine which gives her a defense bonus from her higher speed. In addition she still has that subsystem targeting and a host of Sci abilities to mitigate damage. Along with increase maneuverability to change shield facings if needed.

Damage wise most would still say the Excelsior has the advantage. Now base, unmodified by power; a standard 7 Mk XII Common beam broadside from the Excel would have 1,232 DPS with consoles to bring that up. Now figuring the standard Sci point your nose and tank and spank tactic. A Niagara with 3 DBB Mk XII Common and 3 Mk XII Common Turrets would have a base DPS of 1,083. Now that 150 DPS disparity would only be increased by the added console on the Excelsior. However the Niagara's tank a spank fighting style would allow it to also keep its Quantum torp in play more often than the Excel. In addition her Sci abilities can take down the enemy shield and keep them held in place to fire on that opening. Damage over time the Niagara would win out.

But just for a second imagine a Niagara in defense mode. You be looking at facing a ship with stats like these.

Weapons 79 / Shields 125 / Engines 65 / Aux 65

Which depending on the captain could be flown like a tank, or a Hvy Escort. That is not a ship I would want to face. Good Sci captains are hard to beat, lets not make bad Sci captains just as capable.
Considering we have nt talked about shields, hull or turnrate, why don't we do that before jumping to conclusions?

For the record: I HATE overpowered ships.

What I meant by Science-Cruiser Hybrid was actually a ship that's based on a cruiser (like the Star Cruiser or Galaxy) with an LtC Science and no Science-Specific gimmicks.
That's why I called it a "Diplomatic Cruiser", not a "Diplomatic Science ship".
The idea was to trade an aft weapons slot for extra power, not some OP instawinproboat.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 750
# 60
10-29-2012, 07:44 AM
Since the Niagara class is a lame kitbash of the Ambassador class, it should not be allowed in the game until we get the Ambassador.
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