Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 41
# 11
10-26-2012, 08:34 AM
Just because other ship classes dont mention them doesn't mean they don't exist. The Akria and Promethus would be prime examples of ships that almost certainly would have that same ability in ST as the Galaxy, just based on looking at the roles & ship designs these type of ships played in ST.

There are also many cruiser setups that'll work wonders with exposing the hull. Grab 4 to 6 tetryon beams, and load the other slots with torps, let the tetryon strip the shields down, turn slightly to fire off that high yield 2/spread II on the exposed hull works wonderfully. Other hybrid beam types that will do shield damge also apply. Further enhanced with flow capacitors in the particular build.

There is also the ability to take polarons, and a sci energy siphon ability to really reduce all of their abilities, maybe even cause shields to drop briefly for a nice shieldless torpedo hit.

Then there finally is the all up straight up torpedo fun building, taking all torpedos, 2 or 3(depending on max tac consoles) consoles of that specialized torpedo damage enhancers, with skills in torpedos, and then of course the reduced torpedo fire time duty officers and all torpedos or not those shields and hull will take a beating.

Simply put, there are several options avaliable to cruisers that while not quite as direct as a rapid fire heavy cannon escort to bring a shield facing down, shows the options are there.
---
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 12
10-27-2012, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhq View Post
Just because other ship classes dont mention them doesn't mean they don't exist. The Akria and Promethus would be prime examples of ships that almost certainly would have that same ability in ST as the Galaxy, just based on looking at the roles & ship designs these type of ships played in ST.

There are also many cruiser setups that'll work wonders with exposing the hull. Grab 4 to 6 tetryon beams, and load the other slots with torps, let the tetryon strip the shields down, turn slightly to fire off that high yield 2/spread II on the exposed hull works wonderfully. Other hybrid beam types that will do shield damge also apply. Further enhanced with flow capacitors in the particular build.

There is also the ability to take polarons, and a sci energy siphon ability to really reduce all of their abilities, maybe even cause shields to drop briefly for a nice shieldless torpedo hit.

Then there finally is the all up straight up torpedo fun building, taking all torpedos, 2 or 3(depending on max tac consoles) consoles of that specialized torpedo damage enhancers, with skills in torpedos, and then of course the reduced torpedo fire time duty officers and all torpedos or not those shields and hull will take a beating.

Simply put, there are several options avaliable to cruisers that while not quite as direct as a rapid fire heavy cannon escort to bring a shield facing down, shows the options are there.
Negative, you can't assume the ability of tactical systems just because you would like a ship to perform a certain way. If the manual donesn't say it or its not mentioned in Memory Alpha or Beta, then is doesn't happen.

The Akira didn't fire spreads, it fired consecutively. The word "spread" was mentioned in describing the array of torpedo lauchers, since it has 15 independent launchers. Nothing said about a single burst of torpedos. It doesn't have one large torpedo bay that can fit five torpedos in it at a time. The Akira is not even supposed to be an escort, armed with cannons, like in this game but a Heavy Cruise that can launch small crafts.

The Prometheus says phasers and torpedos as armaments, and the only things making it special is it's multi vector system, regenerative shielding and it is the fastest warp ship in the fleet at the time. I'm sure if it had special torpedo abilities it would not have gone unmentioned.

STO has your head all screwed up on what's canon and what isn't. Go read Memory Alpha and Beta, to learn ships before you assume something.

Last edited by alexindcobra; 10-27-2012 at 07:57 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 84
# 13 Loving STO, but...
10-27-2012, 09:27 AM
...what's with all the 'I want everything and nobody else should have anything!' threads?

That's not just the OP, btw. I've noticed it in almost every damn thread, it's a wonder the Devs haven't given up in disgust at the playerbase.

Back to the thread though, I don't see the problem at all. If you want to be more DPS go grab an escort from ship requisitions, it's not that difficult, or if you want your cruiser class to do more damage learn to adapt your playstyle/consoles/loadout, but you're going to have to accept that making a ship that does absolutely everything will REALLY screw the balance.

Personally, I love the escort DPS ability, but I've stopped using my escort because having all the firepower in the world doesn't mean anything when you spend half the STF on res timer, (and yet I don't see escort player crying in the forum threatening to ragequit if they don't get the same resilience as the cruisers) so I changed from an escort TO a cruiser. At first I thought I'd have to resign myself to doing minimal damage but instead of throwing a tantrum at the Devs I changed my playstyle/loadout and now my cruiser actually outperforms my escort in every field!

My point is this, no one ship class is better than any other in my experience, it's just a matter of finding one that suits your playstyle and then modifying it to compliment the goal you're aiming for, oh, and also learn to accept that you can't have everything your own way, trust me, you'll feel better when you stop sweating over the inconsequential stuff.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 14
10-28-2012, 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormbringer77 View Post
...what's with all the 'I want everything and nobody else should have anything!' threads?

That's not just the OP, btw. I've noticed it in almost every damn thread, it's a wonder the Devs haven't given up in disgust at the playerbase.

Back to the thread though, I don't see the problem at all. If you want to be more DPS go grab an escort from ship requisitions, it's not that difficult, or if you want your cruiser class to do more damage learn to adapt your playstyle/consoles/loadout, but you're going to have to accept that making a ship that does absolutely everything will REALLY screw the balance.

Personally, I love the escort DPS ability, but I've stopped using my escort because having all the firepower in the world doesn't mean anything when you spend half the STF on res timer, (and yet I don't see escort player crying in the forum threatening to ragequit if they don't get the same resilience as the cruisers) so I changed from an escort TO a cruiser. At first I thought I'd have to resign myself to doing minimal damage but instead of throwing a tantrum at the Devs I changed my playstyle/loadout and now my cruiser actually outperforms my escort in every field!

My point is this, no one ship class is better than any other in my experience, it's just a matter of finding one that suits your playstyle and then modifying it to compliment the goal you're aiming for, oh, and also learn to accept that you can't have everything your own way, trust me, you'll feel better when you stop sweating over the inconsequential stuff.
Thats where the balance is gone. This game is supposed to be balance and fun for every type of player, not just escort flyers. Its easy for you to just go with the flow, no matter how wrong it is. You not the type of person that believes in fighting for their right. If you don't like the threads, because they are not singing praises, then close you eyes, don't look at them. You are not a Dev so you don't know what they are thinking. They type in yellow anyway when they speak.

I will say this again, THERE IS NO REWARD FOR TAKING HITS OR MAKING SPAM IN THIS GAME. YOU ONLY GET CREDIT FOR KILLS.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 387
# 15
10-28-2012, 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post

STO has your head all screwed up on what's canon and what isn't. Go read Memory Alpha and Beta, to learn ships before you assume something.
Honestly? Canon is a fantastically stupid way to build a game, for several reasons:

1) Most importantly, Star Trek canon is notoriously inconsistent with itself. In any given episode, the writers were more interested in trying to tell a good story than they were with keeping everything consistent across five different live-action series, ten movies, and god-knows how many tech manuals, blueprints, official guides, novels, comics, cartoons, etc. In truth there is no 'one' canon, most people can (and do) take whatever bits they prefer, and handwave away the rest.

2) Canon is restrictive. Even if there were one perfect, internally consistent canon, treating it like a sacred scripture would be horrifically limiting. Since there is a document somewhere that says that Galaxy class phaser arrays are supposedly the most powerful in Starfleet, you now have to make that happen, regardless of the fact that later ships like the Defiant, Prometheus, and Sovereign classes are logically supposed to be 'more powerful' warships. Moreover, you are forced to eliminate whole sections of Star Trek Fandom, because they don't 'fit' - like TOS uniforms? Too bad, those are out-of-date. Like the Excelsior class? Sorry, it's obsolete! Etc. Finally, if you treat canon as a bright boundary around what is acceptable, then you can never progress the story, because every new ship, new race, etc. you add is now 'not canon'.

3) Canon was never, ever designed with an eye towards gameplay. STO is a game, and therefore has different needs than the writers who were creating static narratives. In a movie, we don't really care that a particular ship is more/less powerful than another, or that we can't quite tweak the ship to look/act the way we want, or whatever. We are merely watching the story, not participating in it. Once you are in a game, and ostensibly are a part of the narrative, everything changes - few people are interested in playing a game where they are the perpetual underdogs, for example. Thus, if you stick to 'canon', where a particular ship is 'the best' because a writer said so for plot reasons, then EVERYONE will want that ship - which creates a problem when someone points out that in canon, there were only like 12 of that ship built, so everyone else has to make do with something else. That's highly lame.

Ultimately, if something really bothers you as being 'not canon', all you have to do is do what the Star Trek writers did - spend 5 minutes coming up with a technobabble explanation to cover it. I'll get you started:

As designed, the Prometheus class starship lacked rapid-fire torpedo launchers, as there were concerns that the hull stresses from rapid launches might bind the delicate connectors for the Multi-vector system. However, by 2374, advances in inertial dampener technology enabled far better recoil compensation for torpedo launchers. This, coupled with continuing developments in weapons miniaturization, led to a general refit of the Prometheus' torpedo systems, enabling each launcher to fire up to four torpedoes in rapid succession.

Easy. Give me your next canon issue and I'll solve that too
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 16
10-28-2012, 06:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
Ultimately, if something really bothers you as being 'not canon', all you have to do is do what the Star Trek writers did - spend 5 minutes coming up with a technobabble explanation to cover it. I'll get you started:

As designed, the Prometheus class starship lacked rapid-fire torpedo launchers, as there were concerns that the hull stresses from rapid launches might bind the delicate connectors for the Multi-vector system. However, by 2374, advances in inertial dampener technology enabled far better recoil compensation for torpedo launchers. This, coupled with continuing developments in weapons miniaturization, led to a general refit of the Prometheus' torpedo systems, enabling each launcher to fire up to four torpedoes in rapid succession.

Easy. Give me your next canon issue and I'll solve that too
Well played sir. *tips hat*
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,976
# 17
10-29-2012, 03:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Thats where the balance is gone. This game is supposed to be balance and fun for every type of player, not just escort flyers. Its easy for you to just go with the flow, no matter how wrong it is. You not the type of person that believes in fighting for their right. If you don't like the threads, because they are not singing praises, then close you eyes, don't look at them. You are not a Dev so you don't know what they are thinking. They type in yellow anyway when they speak.

I will say this again, THERE IS NO REWARD FOR TAKING HITS OR MAKING SPAM IN THIS GAME. YOU ONLY GET CREDIT FOR KILLS.
not entirely true, you get credit for healing done, dmg done, assistant kills, and objectives completed...half of those do not include dealing dmg.
example: starbase 24, if you heal yourself while taking the beating from multiple ships (tanking) you will end up first place and get the shiny loot.

on the subject of building games 100% canon, i think mrtshead said everything there is to say about the it...and more.
i want to add, that maybe an adventure or something of that kind...most definately a singleplayer game can be 100% canon, but multiplayer is basically impossible..otherwise it becomes dull, even more than STO is right now.

on a related subject: just wondering if this thread too will hit 60 pages with a circleing argument that basically is just a "need help, i can't make it work" kind of thing.
torpedos are far from useless, if used correctly they are dangerous burst weapons on any starship class.


also, i find torpedo damage in canon actuually laughable and beyond reasonable. Consider that even a weak nuclear device is far more powerfull than even a tricobald device in the shows. Also very contradicting in shows...when the defiant fired quantum torpedos on a planet you could see the explosions from orbit...yet when they are fired during battle it has the power of 500lb conventional bomb...even if they specifically say highest yield.
So comparing canon torpedos with ingame torpedos is absolutely flawed, since not even canon can establish the firepower of a torpedo. And the yield setting is a crappy explanation for that, the effects are tuned for scrren effect, nothing more...the game tries to copy that. The flaw of those torpedos lie within canon, not in the game actually. If torpedos where presented consequently in only ONE way, than the game would reproduce them accordingly, but they are not...so you can't even copy canon torpedos since that would mean they are incredibly powerfull one time and incredibly weak the next time.

basically what crytic did as a workaround to this canon dilemma, they made them on hull only powerfull. thats pretty genius from a gameplay point of view and since there wasn't really much to work with from canon.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 10-29-2012 at 04:11 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 431
# 18
10-29-2012, 03:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Negative, you can't assume the ability of tactical systems just because you would like a ship to perform a certain way. If the manual donesn't say it or its not mentioned in Memory Alpha or Beta, then is doesn't happen.

The Akira didn't fire spreads, it fired consecutively. The word "spread" was mentioned in describing the array of torpedo lauchers, since it has 15 independent launchers. Nothing said about a single burst of torpedos. It doesn't have one large torpedo bay that can fit five torpedos in it at a time. The Akira is not even supposed to be an escort, armed with cannons, like in this game but a Heavy Cruise that can launch small crafts.

The Prometheus says phasers and torpedos as armaments, and the only things making it special is it's multi vector system, regenerative shielding and it is the fastest warp ship in the fleet at the time. I'm sure if it had special torpedo abilities it would not have gone unmentioned.

STO has your head all screwed up on what's canon and what isn't. Go read Memory Alpha and Beta, to learn ships before you assume something.
.................................................. .................................................. ..

fairy tail bla bal bal
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 431
# 19
10-29-2012, 03:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rakija879 View Post
.................................................. .................................................. ..

fairy tail bla bal bal
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhq View Post
Just because other ship classes dont mention them doesn't mean they don't exist. The Akria and Promethus would be prime examples of ships that almost certainly would have that same ability in ST as the Galaxy, just based on looking at the roles & ship designs these type of ships played in ST.

There are also many cruiser setups that'll work wonders with exposing the hull. Grab 4 to 6 tetryon beams, and load the other slots with torps, let the tetryon strip the shields down, turn slightly to fire off that high yield 2/spread II on the exposed hull works wonderfully. Other hybrid beam types that will do shield damge also apply. Further enhanced with flow capacitors in the particular build.

There is also the ability to take polarons, and a sci energy siphon ability to really reduce all of their abilities, maybe even cause shields to drop briefly for a nice shieldless torpedo hit.

Then there finally is the all up straight up torpedo fun building, taking all torpedos, 2 or 3(depending on max tac consoles) consoles of that specialized torpedo damage enhancers, with skills in torpedos, and then of course the reduced torpedo fire time duty officers and all torpedos or not those shields and hull will take a beating.

Simply put, there are several options avaliable to cruisers that while not quite as direct as a rapid fire heavy cannon escort to bring a shield facing down, shows the options are there.
.................................

fairy tail bla bal bal
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 597
# 20
10-29-2012, 08:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
Honestly? Canon is a fantastically stupid way to build a game, for several reasons:

1) Most importantly, Star Trek canon is notoriously inconsistent with itself. In any given episode, the writers were more interested in trying to tell a good story than they were with keeping everything consistent across five different live-action series, ten movies, and god-knows how many tech manuals, blueprints, official guides, novels, comics, cartoons, etc. In truth there is no 'one' canon, most people can (and do) take whatever bits they prefer, and handwave away the rest.

2) Canon is restrictive. Even if there were one perfect, internally consistent canon, treating it like a sacred scripture would be horrifically limiting. Since there is a document somewhere that says that Galaxy class phaser arrays are supposedly the most powerful in Starfleet, you now have to make that happen, regardless of the fact that later ships like the Defiant, Prometheus, and Sovereign classes are logically supposed to be 'more powerful' warships. Moreover, you are forced to eliminate whole sections of Star Trek Fandom, because they don't 'fit' - like TOS uniforms? Too bad, those are out-of-date. Like the Excelsior class? Sorry, it's obsolete! Etc. Finally, if you treat canon as a bright boundary around what is acceptable, then you can never progress the story, because every new ship, new race, etc. you add is now 'not canon'.

3) Canon was never, ever designed with an eye towards gameplay. STO is a game, and therefore has different needs than the writers who were creating static narratives. In a movie, we don't really care that a particular ship is more/less powerful than another, or that we can't quite tweak the ship to look/act the way we want, or whatever. We are merely watching the story, not participating in it. Once you are in a game, and ostensibly are a part of the narrative, everything changes - few people are interested in playing a game where they are the perpetual underdogs, for example. Thus, if you stick to 'canon', where a particular ship is 'the best' because a writer said so for plot reasons, then EVERYONE will want that ship - which creates a problem when someone points out that in canon, there were only like 12 of that ship built, so everyone else has to make do with something else. That's highly lame.

Ultimately, if something really bothers you as being 'not canon', all you have to do is do what the Star Trek writers did - spend 5 minutes coming up with a technobabble explanation to cover it. I'll get you started:

As designed, the Prometheus class starship lacked rapid-fire torpedo launchers, as there were concerns that the hull stresses from rapid launches might bind the delicate connectors for the Multi-vector system. However, by 2374, advances in inertial dampener technology enabled far better recoil compensation for torpedo launchers. This, coupled with continuing developments in weapons miniaturization, led to a general refit of the Prometheus' torpedo systems, enabling each launcher to fire up to four torpedoes in rapid succession.

Easy. Give me your next canon issue and I'll solve that too
Canon is a fantastically stupid in your opinion because you don't like guidlines that conflict with your wishes. Canon is not restrictive, it should be a guideline from which a story starts and how baseline schematics on technology starts. After that, then you can add customization. Canon can be an excuse if they wanted to use a reason why they made certain ships act a certain way, but when there is no canon fact to back it it up, then it show a personal bais. The base turn rates, powers, and known ship abilities should follow canon first then allow players to customize as they they see fit. It this game, the abilities of the ships are mostly customized by the DEV's instead of the players because of BOFF layouts, console layouts, ship inert modifiers, and base performance that don't reflect canon. The Devs are the ones that restricted players to use their ships in a certain way. Players didn't choose which ship should be a science ship, tank, or DPS ship, it was the devs. That's where your restriction is. They contradicted themselves when they let certain ships play all the roles at the same time, so if they let one group of ship types play multi roles, they should allow all the ships to play multi roles. When Devs makes certain ships out perform others just to make a certain crowd happy, then that is imbalance, and the rest of the players unhappy. If you make a large portion of Star Trek fans unhappy, then they will leave the game and they will populate some other game.
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