Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 21
10-29-2012, 10:07 AM
I had used Star Trek canon as a reference to show the bias and inconsistancy in the game. The canon argument was not show what torpedos are supposed to do for damage but to show how far the Devs went to give certain ships an advantage over others. I had started another agument about bringing the DPS of beams to to level of cannons but of course it met stiff opposition from players who use cannons. Torpedos is another matter. One contradiction in just this game is that the torpedos comming from NPC's do great DPS to shields while player's torpedos are nerfed. The bais is when torpedos are ineffective for use on a cruiser since it's beams can not strip down shields, while use on an escort is highly effective because it's cannons easily strip down shields, leaving an exposed hull to be destroyed by torpedos.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,769
# 22
10-29-2012, 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
Honestly? Canon is a fantastically stupid way to build a game, for several reasons:

1) Most importantly, Star Trek canon is notoriously inconsistent with itself. In any given episode, the writers were more interested in trying to tell a good story than they were with keeping everything consistent across five different live-action series, ten movies, and god-knows how many tech manuals, blueprints, official guides, novels, comics, cartoons, etc. In truth there is no 'one' canon, most people can (and do) take whatever bits they prefer, and handwave away the rest.

2) Canon is restrictive. Even if there were one perfect, internally consistent canon, treating it like a sacred scripture would be horrifically limiting. Since there is a document somewhere that says that Galaxy class phaser arrays are supposedly the most powerful in Starfleet, you now have to make that happen, regardless of the fact that later ships like the Defiant, Prometheus, and Sovereign classes are logically supposed to be 'more powerful' warships. Moreover, you are forced to eliminate whole sections of Star Trek Fandom, because they don't 'fit' - like TOS uniforms? Too bad, those are out-of-date. Like the Excelsior class? Sorry, it's obsolete! Etc. Finally, if you treat canon as a bright boundary around what is acceptable, then you can never progress the story, because every new ship, new race, etc. you add is now 'not canon'.

3) Canon was never, ever designed with an eye towards gameplay. STO is a game, and therefore has different needs than the writers who were creating static narratives. In a movie, we don't really care that a particular ship is more/less powerful than another, or that we can't quite tweak the ship to look/act the way we want, or whatever. We are merely watching the story, not participating in it. Once you are in a game, and ostensibly are a part of the narrative, everything changes - few people are interested in playing a game where they are the perpetual underdogs, for example. Thus, if you stick to 'canon', where a particular ship is 'the best' because a writer said so for plot reasons, then EVERYONE will want that ship - which creates a problem when someone points out that in canon, there were only like 12 of that ship built, so everyone else has to make do with something else. That's highly lame.

Ultimately, if something really bothers you as being 'not canon', all you have to do is do what the Star Trek writers did - spend 5 minutes coming up with a technobabble explanation to cover it. I'll get you started:

As designed, the Prometheus class starship lacked rapid-fire torpedo launchers, as there were concerns that the hull stresses from rapid launches might bind the delicate connectors for the Multi-vector system. However, by 2374, advances in inertial dampener technology enabled far better recoil compensation for torpedo launchers. This, coupled with continuing developments in weapons miniaturization, led to a general refit of the Prometheus' torpedo systems, enabling each launcher to fire up to four torpedoes in rapid succession.

Easy. Give me your next canon issue and I'll solve that too
Well spoken, though I agree with the other poster as well.
This thread quickly devolves into " I want .........." and becomes completely unbalanced way often.
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Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 9
# 23
10-29-2012, 11:07 AM
So if we designed thew layout of meach ship acording to canon then the akira class (armitage class) would have the abilty to fit 15 torp tubes. hmm that would be a tad over powered, so how thay get round it? with a consule. You can have the ships to the same specs as the shows it would be a technical nightmare.

but a 15 torp tube set up akira would be fun
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 24
10-29-2012, 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ginge77 View Post
So if we designed thew layout of meach ship acording to canon then the akira class (armitage class) would have the abilty to fit 15 torp tubes. hmm that would be a tad over powered, so how thay get round it? with a consule. You can have the ships to the same specs as the shows it would be a technical nightmare.

but a 15 torp tube set up akira would be fun
No, I didn't say anthything weapon layout but it would only be fun if player torpedos were not nerfed to less than NPC level. There is no game period, that can match canon schematics of weapon numbers because the computer will get bogged down trying to keep up with every fuction. I don't expect the game to let you fire all of the Sovereign's 16 phasers and torpedo launcher. I was trying to point out the contradiction of this game making ships, that aren't designed to fire torpedo spreads, fire 6+ torpedos at one target while the ships, that are designed to fire torpedo srpeads, fire 3 or 4 torpedos at one target. I hope in the future they will gradually add weapon slots to ships so they can get closer to their numbers.

The weapon layouts they have right now are just a basic numbers the Devs picked to keep the program simple. It could of been more or less. Canon layouts can reflect the basic fuction or performance of the ship. For example, the Defiant's canon class comes with quad phaser pulse cannons, so that what should of been on the ship from the start. The ship should have the same shield modifier of 1 as the other ships because it has not been shown as a ship that can take alot of hits from a capitol ship, but rather dodge them. Then let the player decide if he wants to modify his shields, weapons, and engines. BOFFs, I think, should be universal to let the players decide whether his ship will be Tac , Sci or Eng oriented. Also I think the console slots should be universal as well so players can put what ever console that he likes instead of DEVs dictating on how many of certain types consoles can be applied.

The best example of Devs customized ships are the lock box ships. All of them serve completely different purpose that the player is pretty much left out of the loop in customization. One that "takes the cake" is the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, that seems to be the hardest to kill ship in the game for its, speed and shield durability. The Devs wanted to make it a PVP juggernaught so they gave it extra power mods across weapons, shield, and engines. Canon would of dictated that it couldn't play the juggernaught role becaue it was one the easiest destroyed ship in the show. Once mated with the Borg kit, then its indestructable. Other lock box ships come with their own perks that are customized by the Devs and not the players, thus making a race on who can get the "I Win" ships first. They should make things to where players can make their own "I win" ships out any class ship they want.

Last edited by alexindcobra; 10-29-2012 at 12:19 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 41
# 25
10-29-2012, 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
STO has your head all screwed up on what's canon and what isn't. Go read Memory Alpha and Beta, to learn ships before you assume something.
I appreciate your assumption about what's going on in my head.. didn't realize you could read minds! Perhaps next time you can ask my permission before reading & analyzing my mind? Thank you.


Anyways I actually do read Memory Alpha as I see fit, but the difference is I am willing to fill in the gaps in order to satisfy any non-canon introduced mechanics into canon so I can have a enjoyable experience with the game.

Just the same as I filled it in with Star Trek Armada I with the Galaxy class having quantum tops and all sorts of those special powers across several ST games.

Fact being though this is the Devs world. Told from their perspectives, their minds (mostly. Restricted by engine, coding complexity etc.). I would LOVE some of these inconsistencies with canon and STO fixed, but considering balancing (being the biggie -- imagine needing 200+ member raid to in-canon take out a tac cube!!), the immense complexities of MMO software coding packages, and other computing restrictions.. if you want to enjoy the game, you gotta loosen up on the canon interpretations some, just like any other ST game.

I'll put a ST DVD into the Blu Ray player when I want total 100% canon.
---
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Sincerely,
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 461
# 26
10-29-2012, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Canon is a fantastically stupid ...
I was going to try to respond to you point by point, but it just got silly, so I'll try this:

First, you have no idea what my wishes are, but even if you were right that my only reason for opposing you is that I don't want to lose the 'privileged' status of escorts, that doesn't mean I'm wrong about how dumb canon is as a yardstick.

In fact, everything else that you said about bias etc PROVES my first point - you are deciding which canon YOU like, and discarding anything else, because the canon is so inconsistent that you can do so.

For example, where is your canon source for how (say) the Prometheus and Galaxy classes compare? I'll give you a hint - there ISN'T one. They never go toe-to-toe in the shows, and they are never directly compared side to side. So, now what? We know that both ships are considered by their respective fans as 'the best', and there's no 'objective' canon to guide us as to who wins, so what do we do? No matter what decision we make, it will always involve some measure of 'personal bias' as you put it.

Here's the long and short of it: You have an agenda, you want cruisers to be made more powerful by hook or by crook because you are dissatisfied with how your favorite ship operates, and you are reaching for 'canon' to try to justify your feelings. You are also consistently misrepresenting your personal opinions, biases, and observations as 'fact', when they are nothing of the kind. The fact is that in this game, the Devs made the decision that cruisers were going to be tanks/healers, escorts would do damage, and sci would be debuff/CC. The extent to which they hit those design goals may be up in the air, but that is the theory. If you don't like, it, fine - but don't expect a total overhaul of the fundamental game design theory to match your own bias.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 27
10-29-2012, 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sfhq View Post
I appreciate your assumption about what's going on in my head.. didn't realize you could read minds! Perhaps next time you can ask my permission before reading & analyzing my mind? Thank you.


Anyways I actually do read Memory Alpha as I see fit, but the difference is I am willing to fill in the gaps in order to satisfy any non-canon introduced mechanics into canon so I can have a enjoyable experience with the game.

Just the same as I filled it in with Star Trek Armada I with the Galaxy class having quantum tops and all sorts of those special powers across several ST games.

Fact being though this is the Devs world. Told from their perspectives, their minds (mostly. Restricted by engine, coding complexity etc.). I would LOVE some of these inconsistencies with canon and STO fixed, but considering balancing (being the biggie -- imagine needing 200+ member raid to in-canon take out a tac cube!!), the immense complexities of MMO software coding packages, and other computing restrictions.. if you want to enjoy the game, you gotta loosen up on the canon interpretations some, just like any other ST game.

I'll put a ST DVD into the Blu Ray player when I want total 100% canon.
Canon is just a guidline from where to start. The Devs have made ships fit their own likes and not let the player have a say in it. Thats where many fans are not happy. I think you have your Star Trek games mixed up. There are no Galaxy Class in Star Trek Armada I, the were in Armada II and ships are not customizable just upgraded. Those torpedos are orange photon torpedos. Only in Starfleet Command III, ships are customizable with weapons, shields, and warp cores. You was just limited to how many weapons were allowed to be put on certain ships. That game is the closest to canon out of all the Star Trek games. The performence of the ship was based on the experience of your crew instead of pormance coming from factory specs. I miss that game.

In this game, in the name of balance they so called cripple one type of ship to let another fit a role. They have gotten carried away with it. Now we have nerfed torpedos, overpowered cannons, and indefensible science abilities. We have one group of ships dominating all the others. Would you say thats balance?


THE DPS OF TORPEDOS NEED TO MATCH THAT OF THE NPC'S.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 28
10-29-2012, 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
I was going to try to respond to you point by point, but it just got silly, so I'll try this:

First, you have no idea what my wishes are, but even if you were right that my only reason for opposing you is that I don't want to lose the 'privileged' status of escorts, that doesn't mean I'm wrong about how dumb canon is as a yardstick.

In fact, everything else that you said about bias etc PROVES my first point - you are deciding which canon YOU like, and discarding anything else, because the canon is so inconsistent that you can do so.

For example, where is your canon source for how (say) the Prometheus and Galaxy classes compare? I'll give you a hint - there ISN'T one. They never go toe-to-toe in the shows, and they are never directly compared side to side. So, now what? We know that both ships are considered by their respective fans as 'the best', and there's no 'objective' canon to guide us as to who wins, so what do we do? No matter what decision we make, it will always involve some measure of 'personal bias' as you put it.

Here's the long and short of it: You have an agenda, you want cruisers to be made more powerful by hook or by crook because you are dissatisfied with how your favorite ship operates, and you are reaching for 'canon' to try to justify your feelings. You are also consistently misrepresenting your personal opinions, biases, and observations as 'fact', when they are nothing of the kind. The fact is that in this game, the Devs made the decision that cruisers were going to be tanks/healers, escorts would do damage, and sci would be debuff/CC. The extent to which they hit those design goals may be up in the air, but that is the theory. If you don't like, it, fine - but don't expect a total overhaul of the fundamental game design theory to match your own bias.
Name some canon inconsistancies thats relevant to what we are talking about, Torpedos.
You are right, you only want the escort to be the dominating force. When you are on the receiving end of all the goodies, of course you not going to to see the unfairness. It would be a conflict of interest for you to judge whats ging on in this game. Unfortunately, this game consist of more than just you or one group of people. The balance got away from this game when all the rewards went to the ship getting the most kills. The balance got away when only escorts hog all the vary rare End Game gear while cruisers and other types get common gear. The balance got away when the PVP arenas became dominated by escorts and lock box ship that tank and DPS.

If I wanted to be bais then I would ask for the cruisers to be the best ships in the game, but you did not see any such words coming for me.
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 41
# 29
10-29-2012, 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Canon is just a guidline from where to start. The Devs have made ships fit their own likes and not let the player have a say in it. Thats where many fans are not happy. I think you have your Star Trek games mixed up. There are no Galaxy Class in Star Trek Armada I, the were in Armada II and ships are not customizable just upgraded. Those torpedos are orange photon torpedos. Only in Starfleet Command III, ships are customizable with weapons, shields, and warp cores. You was just limited to how many weapons were allowed to be put on certain ships. That game is the closest to canon out of all the Star Trek games. The performence of the ship was based on the experience of your crew instead of pormance coming from factory specs. I miss that game.

In this game, in the name of balance they so called cripple one type of ship to let another fit a role. They have gotten carried away with it. Now we have nerfed torpedos, overpowered cannons, and indefensible science abilities. We have one group of ships dominating all the others. Would you say thats balance?


THE DPS OF TORPEDOS NEED TO MATCH THAT OF THE NPC'S.
"Once and Again" first mission in ST Armada I in the "Omega" series of missions, Ambassador's Spock Galaxy is the critical mission ship, 2 more show up in "A Line in the Sand".. additionally you can also have it added to your Adv. Shipyard with a mod. Armada II your quite correct was Galaxy with Photons.

As far as balance goes.. We all have a different perceptions of balance, and no one is ever going to be completely satisfied with any type of balancing act. In my opinion is it balanced? No, but its not absurd. And if they change it? Well everyone is just going to find that "perfect" build yet again, say everything else is a useless class/ability, and repeat this process all over again. Additionally adding this layer of complexity with torp. spread restrictions as just an example is just going to confuse those having to plot out yet another layer of what does what on what type charts detracting from its appeal as a simpler game than others to pick up and play. I wouldn't mind the extra complexity personally but others would.
---
"We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Resistance is futile."
Sincerely,
The Cube Assimilating Your Ship Right Now
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,143
# 30
10-30-2012, 02:43 AM
while i don't see any reason to change how torpedos work currently, i would have loved to see torpedos as a sort of commodity.

every ship had 1-2 torpedo launchers build in, and you fire torpedos until you run out of them.
lets say a cruiser then had a complement of around 1000 torpedos onboard. and the type is determend by your choice. lets say you have 500 photons and 500 quantum. In combat you have the ability to switch between torpedo types...until you run out.

lets say cruisers and sci vessels had launchers front and aft, while the standard escort had one only in front.
an escort only has a compliment of 500, while a sci had 750 and a cruiser 1000.
something like the device slots...cruisers have 4 slots with 250 per stack, sci 3, etc.

standard common torpedos could be bought from npcs, while rare and very rare were crafted and/or via doff missions aquired.

that is, i hope we all can agree, actually canon since running out of torpedos happend several times during the shows. Also it would give cruisers and sci vessel a slight, still balanced edge towards escorts, because they have more heavy weaponry aboard, and still carry 8 beams.

But again, this is just an idea, i'm not unhappy with the current system.

*edit: i also want to add, that maybe the launcher is a sepperate slot in the ship inventory, like hangars for instance. And launchers can be put in, to maybe increase recharge time or certain types, or base yield, or flying speed.
Rapid launchers as an example: fire 2 torpedos at a time.
or efficent launcher: only uses half torpedo per shot.
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Last edited by baudl; 10-30-2012 at 07:08 AM.
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