Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 30
# 11
07-13-2012, 04:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolbrandr View Post
When you're just popping in, you had enough hull already before the update. They can't kill you in 3 seconds from my experience.

When you get actually decloaked is when you are at risk of being blown up. But when decloaked, your shields get brought up. If those then get taken down and I'm relying on my 4k extra hull to protect me, I'm dead anyways.
hmmm? last I knew whent he B'rel decloaks to fire torpedo's.... (which is totally against what the ship and movie SHOW the ships is capable of ) Your shields do not come up and you recloak after being exposed for those 3 seconds.

Probably one of the craziest nerfs I ever seen dears. A better one would of to of limited how many torpedo's the vessel could mount, OR only certain type of torpedo made specifically for it, so you can control how many it can equip.

but that three second exposed thing? along with the already broken cloak? clearly that needs to be re-examined.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 265
# 12
07-13-2012, 11:01 AM
You are correct about the decloak to fire. I was referring to when someone decloaks you. Forcible decloak. Then your shields do in fact come up.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,453
# 13
07-13-2012, 11:17 AM
I find that the 3 second "decloak" only seriously hurts me in PvE when I'm in close range of multiple hostiles.

The real problem would be continuously firing torpedoes and offensive abilities so that you never really re-cloak. Popping off one torpedo at a time is basically worthless unless you catch somebody with their shields down, so you pretty much need to keep spamming attacks. In PvP that would be plenty of time for someone to target you with an ability that would take down your cloak completely.

So, what's the best tactic to use when you've been forcibly de-cloaked?
Ensign
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1
# 14
07-13-2012, 02:02 PM
Run like HELL!!!!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,123
# 15
07-13-2012, 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
I find that the 3 second "decloak" only seriously hurts me in PvE when I'm in close range of multiple hostiles.

The real problem would be continuously firing torpedoes and offensive abilities so that you never really re-cloak. Popping off one torpedo at a time is basically worthless unless you catch somebody with their shields down, so you pretty much need to keep spamming attacks. In PvP that would be plenty of time for someone to target you with an ability that would take down your cloak completely.

So, what's the best tactic to use when you've been forcibly de-cloaked?
Fire your volley and deselect your target right afterwards. Retarget when your torpedoes are off cooldown and fire again.

Or hit them with Jam Sensors. While I understand Jam Sensors is frowned upon in a team PVP game, this ship is not designed to be a defensive support ship. Any abilities you use to help your team will probably decloak you.
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 265
# 16
07-13-2012, 03:05 PM
I use jam sensors and run like hell. Engine battery, EP2E, Evasive, and gone. But I pvp in ker'rat, so it's no big deal there.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 54
# 17 Hmm...
10-30-2012, 01:56 AM
part of the trouble is that there are just so very many powers and abilities that decloak you, lock you down, or reveal you without breaking your cloak.

Sensor scan- reveal, deos not break cloak- yer a sitting, shieldless duck.

Tractor beam- decloak and immobilise.

particle burst- AOE reveal and shield hit. Does not need to even see you first. if you are close, you are hit.
Shockwave- same thing.

TBR Does not fire or damage, but draws a nice glowy line right to you. so they can fly near and hit another power. And if you do become active, hits do not break cloak- no shields.

Passive sensors- even with the b'rel at full aux, and in the honor guard set, even a slightly raised sci's sensing (Such as the sensor sweep buff to self) will spot you at 5 klicks. (reveal, no shields)

homing torp console- made to hunt you down and nuke your engines and disable your cloak. (the hit is free to hull, then shields come up)
Shockwave torpedo- it'll get your friends too. (Free hit to hull then shields come after stun)

grav well- AOE that automatically decloaks you if you stray within its range. Does not need to target you directly. Especially problematic as in instances with many objects (mines etc) the graphic for this hazard does not become visible.

Mines- Auto target and hit to hull even while invisible. (Tric's anyone?) And are not seen until you are already in their range thanks to the changed made to reduce lag.

Attack pattern beta- nerfs cloak. (Reveal, no shields)

Attack pattern gamma- nerfs cloak (reveal, no shields)

Attack pattern Alpha- nerfs cloak (reveal, no shields)

Fire at will- instant targting and hit no matter what when you use any power that reveals you. Spreading automatic damage and attack pattern born debuffs.

Danube runabouts and other carrier craft- can follow you even while cloaked, revealing your position, and automatically target, shoot, and use abilities such as tractor beam.

Warp plasma- hazard; reveal, slow, limit maneuverability, damage. But this one is avoidable as an aware pilot.

grappling hook- A cheap and easy decloak and slow, that has a difficult to see graphic at the best of times even if it was being showed properly. Instant decloak.

Viral matrix- when it hits aux, your cloak disables. Sometimes this is instant.

This is not even mentioning the auto target and auto fire functions available within the game that allow ships to ambush your ambush without the pilot even being at the desk, targeting you for them, eliminating that small window of advantage that the b'rel has, as determined by the reaction time of your opponent. In effect neutralising the concept and reward of player skill.
-----------------------------------------------------------

This is NOT to say that I am whining about a lack of balance for the ship. Just so everyone is aware. In fact if it wasn't for the glitches that occur in the running of the ship, I would call it very fair considering that many of the above situations have direct counters, and thanks to the ship being entirely universal slots a well prepared pilot can survive and prosper, not to mention feel a great sense of satisfaction at having the skill to survive in such an environment.

tac team- clears and keeps off all attack pattern debuffs.

Sci team- clears sub nuc and sensor sweep. does not counter the sensor buff still present on the power's originating ship- potentially still visible.

Engineering team- counters sub nuke if you are fast enough to catch it. mitigates damage.

Polarise hull- adds durability and breaks holds and repels, protects from the damage of repulsors. but does not counter the decloak or unlock the ability to cloak while the tractor beam etc is still active.

haz emitters- mitigates damage over time

shockwave- breaks tractor beams, stuns, interrupts

scramble sensors- confounds auto targeting, and auto targeting powers (fire at will, cannon spread, torpedo spread) Reveals for three seconds on use, short duration.

Aux to structural- strong pulse of damage mitigation and adds damage resists (I have noted a bug that sometimes occurs where when the power is at end of cycle, your ship randomly reveals itself for three seconds. But as yet i can not replicate why purposefully)

Attack pattern omega- maneuverability and counters (to an extent) tractor beams and other holds.

Spatial barrier- excellent barrier to block enemy ships and alpha strikes- buys time to counter reveals and escape or recover.

Gravimetric pulse- *SURPRISE!* You're ten kilometers away! breaks tractor locks, interrupts, knocks people out of firing arc or out of range. Plus some kinetic damage.

Ship is in effect immune energy weapon debuffs, and weapon energy drain as so long as there is a single point of weapon fire, torpedoes will fire for full effect.

Ship is in effect immune to loss of shields or shield power as they are not used. (unless something bad happened)

Ship is capable of running in max aux with engines secondary for consistant support and powerful stealthed delivery of crowd control and disabling sci powers

Set combinations and officer perks allow for a very high defense rating, meaning that if it is not an auto-targt ability, it has a good chance of missing. (Evasive perk, two pieces of aegis, honor guard shield proc, ship inherant defense based on movement)
------------------------------------------------

As i said. well balanced for those who are willing to put in time and effort. However. there are still glitches that need fixing. As was mentioned with grav wells, graphics sometimes are not shown due to the engine having a limit on the number of possible active objects being visible. While good for lag, it means you skip out of cloak with no warning or chance to avoid the hazard, and without knowing what kicked you out of cloak it is difficult to respond appropriately.

As was mentioned there is also the issue of dialogues still forcing a decloak. which is rather silly. "hang on captain! We need to decloak so i can talk to you!"

Also, Picking up loot disables cloak. ... though this one I don't mind as it can be passed off as removing cloak to open the cargo doors, retrieve the item, etc. *shrug*

The auto targeting proves to be an unfair advantage however. it provides instant and accurate reactions, which completely countermands the idea -behind- the B'rel retro in the first place. IE the element of surprise. Instead a cruiser can sit with all beams on fire at will, or an escort can sit with his beam overloads and torp spreads ready, and the very instant you begin to decloak, you are being targeted, debuffed, damaged, and sometimes instantly killed outright. And this is magnified by the pets which use no user input and require no preparation. they automatically get a free lock and (in the case of danubes) tractor with no possibility to avoid it. Meaning the instant you shoot, you are held, decloaked, and easy to be targeted. To this i believe I have a solution though- on decloak, all agressive units with an automated targeting attack, power, or behavior, gets a random .5 to 1.5 second delay to simulate reaction time. it is still far faster than the manual reaction time of the average person to see, target, select response, and implement. but it gives the b'rel a chance to at least get its shots off first and maybe escape with a sliver of hull as there is a narrower window of vulnerability. This also maintains the balance involved with the three second reveal, as a person can react manually, target, and use one or several of the many available methods to counter the cloak. Bringing a measure of skill back into the equasion.

Fix these three issues (The first two being top priority, the third being undoubtedly a personal opinion thing) and i can see that alone making the B'rel if not a devastating ship, at least worthy of a place on the battlefield- in the hands of a skilled enough pilot.

There is nothing like witnessing five b'rels all decloaking at the same time, unleashing a slew of tyken's rifts, gravity wells, sensor scrambles, and torpedo spreads. it brings a tear to the eye....

spread 3- four clusters of two torpedoes to four targets = 32 torps.
spread 2- three clusters of two torpedoes to three targets = 18 torps
both fired together across five ships = 250 torpedoes.
time it right and everyone fires another spread 3. = 410 torpedoes

Make them quantums and watch the stary sky unfold. *evil grin*

and -that- my friends, is what makes me love the B'rel. More than anything else.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 18
10-30-2012, 03:10 AM
"homing torp console- made to hunt you down and nuke your engines and disable your cloak. (the hit is free to hull, then shields come up)"


Seriously, you were ever hit by emission seeking torpedo ? What did you do ? cut all engine power and raised a sign which reads "HIT ME HIT ME HIT ME OH NASTY TORPEDO, JUST HIT ME ALREADY".
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 54
# 19
11-06-2012, 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post

Seriously, you were ever hit by emission seeking torpedo ? What did you do ? cut all engine power and raised a sign which reads "HIT ME HIT ME HIT ME OH NASTY TORPEDO, JUST HIT ME ALREADY".

First off, I listed it because of what it does. it belongs there as a potential hazard. My own experiences are a moot and useless point as the function is the same regardless.

Second, in a battlefield anything is possible. It happens- irregardless of the skill of the pilot- you have to see it coming in the first place.

third- how does that statement add anything at all to the conversation? At best it is picking at a single detail that changes nothing of the overall statement.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,905
# 20
11-07-2012, 12:16 AM
There are a few issues with the B'rel which none of them have to do with the HP. The real issues behind the b'rel and why sometimes when certain changes are made that seem to try to benefit them they are nice gameplay but only for a short time period because of the whining of the fed only crowd that mostly thing KDF have nothing to do but go after them in PvP which is really far from the truth since PvP in this game is almost as dead as it can get.

As mentioned in this thread the 3 second decloaking benefits the enemy more than the benefits of the ship itself. That being to even try to bring down an enemy which besides kalferi system and some borg stfs they are very few unshielded targets in the game. That being stated kinetic damage which torpedoes do is nullified by shielding in which the way shield damage and drain resists go with specs either npc or player character now more than every make those skills virtually useless at their maximum output via consoles, boff skills, and spec barely even scratch shields so that hinders just about any purpose of using what is specified and advertised in sales of this ship.

Now for the transphasic torpedoes they were buffed from 20% to 40% shield penetration. The problem there is its the lowest damage torpedo in the game. From that you would have to fire so many torpedoes and basically stay decloaked with no shields that pretty much any target you are after can see you as well as lay down some fire on your hull with no shields. So all the things talking about its so hard to decloak one or that there are so many ways to decloak it on either side of the fence when it comes to this are null and void because the way the thing keeps you decloaked in this manner makes it where your enemy either player or npc doesn't need any special skills as long as you try to kill them they are given a gift wrapped target with no shields. Of a few years myself of trying to get them to balance this out all we get is slight buffs and then a nerf someplace else that puts the ship back in dust collecting mode.

So the increased health isn't warranted but actual internal and external ideas on how to make this work where you can compete with cannon and beam layouts without huge disadvantages is needed. We pretty much don't have a decent torpedo for shoot and turn as a former dev stated like it should have been or should be.

There are a few options I have stated over and over that could be beginnings of making it balanced. The first is making it as it was in the movie giving off a red flash once a torpedo is fired which that would give anyone carrying that seeking torpedo (great Idea I gave on that to the devs that they made for the feds but yet did not give us the b'rel users of the KDF any advantages to warrant a fed minded person to keep it on their ship to use so really cryptic is only hurting themselves by decreasing the value in their own products the brel and the console) a reason to use such a console. The other is making a console or game mechanic where any torpedo reguardless if its a transphasic or not have automatic % of shield penetration. That % would help especially due to if it would stack with a transphasic because a torpedo doing like 3k-4k damage and then 40% of that is still less than 500 damage vs 30k to 60k hulls that is pretty much 60-120 torpedo to take down a ship and thats before natural or self activated healing on the part of the target takes place meanwhile the pilot of the b'rel is sitting there while trying to kill the target open to shieldess attacks which to me is out of balance if there are all those powers to decloak a target when the game mechanic itself is doing it for the person being attacked so its OP for the attacker and a huge disadvantage to the owner and seriously out of balance.

Its just little things like this that hinder most players from going KDF because with the subject to change stuff their purchase is only good for one week and I would think a company like Cryptic would finally get the message and start doing something to make things they advertise have a good reputation.
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