Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 31
10-30-2012, 01:53 AM
We just need 180 degrees launchers. And that torpedoes are not so much mitigated by shields. Said that, I'm using torpedoes on all my ships.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,976
# 32
10-30-2012, 04:20 AM
Guys, guys, calm down... I've been watching this for a while (it's been quite amusing) anyway, I feel I can finally add something to this.

I must admit I still think escorts are a tad too powerful in PvE, though a little less so since I got my cruiser build refined (thanks to those who helped) , the free and C-store ones aren't overpowered in PvP though (it's only the lockbox ones that fit that category).

However, back to the point of the thread, torpedoes... I think they are a little underwhelming, especially when you compare them to the NPC ones (borg to be precise, every other NPC torp is level with players), I think they could do with a potency boost, more on cruiser than escorts (not because of an anti-escort bias, they have the slots to spare to power torps up which cruisers don't) as it is most cruisers lack any incentive to use them, why sacrifice beam DPS to get a med damage hit?

Torpedo spreads are so ridiculously weak vs borg So that could probably use a buff considering I get more damage from 1 torp than from a spread.

As for NPCs... I think they should be given player capabilities, why should an NPC negh'var for example have twice the firepower of the player one? Or more health than the player one? Why not put the borg set on all borg ships (it seems logical to me...) it wouldn't stand up to 3 players battering it anyway, give NPCs the same weapon layout as their player equivalent and have them affected by the same power drain as players (again, seems only fair to me). I think we do need to lose the double standards between players and NPCs

And now I'm done *Grabs some snacks and watches *

Last edited by adamkafei; 10-30-2012 at 04:44 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,005
# 33
10-30-2012, 04:54 AM
npc's are npc's...they are not bound to rules that apply to players.
but lets say a negh'var has the abilities a player would have...

going fast, over 50% dodge or even evasive maneuvers...cool
RSP...invul for a few seconds
EPtS, TSS...oh yeah, shield healing npcs...welcome to minutelong battles against freaking npc ships.
HE, AUXtoSIF...i don't see how they can be taken down


actually i'm not entirely against much stronger NPC's, if they are fewer...it is actually laughable how many ships get blown up in only a single battle.
stronger, but fewer npcs would make the game less casual friendly and kind of boring but more canon ofcourse.
And there we have it again...canonic gameplay is untranslateable into an MMO.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,976
# 34
10-30-2012, 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
npc's are npc's...they are not bound to rules that apply to players.
but lets say a negh'var has the abilities a player would have...

going fast, over 50% dodge or even evasive maneuvers...cool
RSP...invul for a few seconds
EPtS, TSS...oh yeah, shield healing npcs...welcome to minutelong battles against freaking npc ships.
HE, AUXtoSIF...i don't see how they can be taken down
I can see your point there but if you then look at the fact they are going to be fired on by at least 2 players sometimes even 3 and suddenly the only ability that has any effect in that battle is RSP, that and they'd be limited to the rest of the rules players have to live by: Shields, hull, resistances, power drain, etc. suddenly it seems more fair does it not?

I don't MIND NPCs that are more powerful than players (in multiplayer maps, mainly the borg) but That should be moderated... 1 shot escort kills is wrong (coming from a firm cruiser fan) I think it silly that an NPC should be able to put 200k plus damage on a target in 1 hit (through full shields)... the only thing in the game that can withstand that is... oh, an NPC... an enemy NPC at that.

That needs to change, NPC damage should be reasonable, yes the borg should do more damage than us, they have better power systems and they've assimilated more advanced races but they don't one shot everything in the shows (even with fleets of redshirt ships around) so why do that in game? (No I'm not talking canon, I'm talking reason, you can't reason 1 shotting all 5 members of a team) yes I think the borg should be hard, yes I think they should be nasty but I don't think they should 1 shot you.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,005
# 35
10-30-2012, 05:49 AM
what i forgot to mention is that cryptic has failed to provide an AI that could actually use abilities intelligently. Mostly it seems they use abilities in a scripted way regardless of the targets status.
I think that is mainly the reason why npc ships have those exagurated abilities.
As a improvement of the general AI is out of discussion now and in the foreseeable future, nothing is going to change.

also this one shot torpedo that is mentioned so frequently is a type of npc attack not uncommon to RPGs or MMOs.
It is an avoidable attack in general (except the invis torpedo, but thats a problem cryptic is aware and is struggling to solve) and to be honest requires some skill to deal with.
I compare it with the charge of butcher in diablo 3, it is clearly visible and requires the player to stop what ever he is doing and react to avoid it, sound familiar?
Same goes with the torpedo spread from donatra or the Stadi...both are clearly visible (buffs of the boss and the swarm of torpedos coming at you) and can be survived if you fire a shield resi buff, hull resi buff and brace for impact.

i mean the isometric charge from those negh'vars is a little over the top, since it is purely bad luck if you get hit last. And it's range is unbelievable, since the bounce is something like 5km in range. that means if you have a bad day it will hit you if you are around 20km away from it, if the ships inbetween are spread correctly.
It is also unpredictable and basically instant, which makes any countermeasure impossible. That is bad gamedesign, and i'm sure cryptic is aware of it and also struggling to moderate it into something less deadly.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 10-30-2012 at 05:55 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,976
# 36
10-30-2012, 06:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
what i forgot to mention is that cryptic has failed to provide an AI that could actually use abilities intelligently. Mostly it seems they use abilities in a scripted way regardless of the targets status.
This is true, enemies in 1998 (see FF7) were coded better (I've seen the code for some of them), even I could have coded that and I have near no programming exp.

Regrettably a change in the AI is probably out of the question, I find it silly given the coding for FF7 was done with IF AND statements. If a programming noob could program that then I think a team of experts could make it happen and improve upon it,

But again, I think we are in agreement on that subject.

With regard to the 1 shots, I have the problem in my cruiser that they fire 1 off which I counter with EWP then it waits for the warp plasma to disappear and then hits me with another while my defense is on CD, if that one fails (FAW) then I get an invisi-torp a few seconds later my escort has the problem that should I evade the first, take out/evade the second then it does the same thing and my science just dies from the first or second one without fail.

I'm glad to read that they are working on it.

I'm not going to say anything more about the ISO
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 405
# 37
10-30-2012, 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Name some canon inconsistancies thats relevant to what we are talking about, Torpedos.
Post 17 in this very thread lays some of this out, which I note you responded to by asserting that in those cases canon was only a guideline, and not a certain rule. So, yeah, you've already effectively conceded that there is no 'canon' basis for your argument.

Also, as an aside, you can't keep throwing in mentions about how game balance is destroyed/escorts are OP/etc. on the one hand, and then refuse to defend your claims by resorting to 'This thread is only about torpedoes, so nothing else matters'. Everyone knows this is part of your campaign to nerf escorts and buff cruisers, so stop acting like talking about you ideas in that context is unwarranted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
You are right, you only want the escort to be the dominating force. When you are on the receiving end of all the goodies, of course you not going to to see the unfairness.
My point.<=======================>You.

Darn! You missed it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
It would be a conflict of interest for you to judge whats ging on in this game.
"Conflict of interest"? Really? Why? Because I have an opinion about game balance that differs from yours? Are you seriously going to claim that you are an objective party here? You keep acting like anyone who can't see how the current, balanced game is manifestly unfair to cruisers must be willfully ignoring the obvious, while at the same time completely failing to see how, from another perspective, what you are asking for is: "Cruisers get more of everything, and escorts get less, because I like cruisers, I hate escorts, and I can't make cruisers work now"

Long story short, if I'm disqualified because of a 'conflict of interest', well, right back at you buddy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Unfortunately, this game consist of more than just you or one group of people.
With a few notable exceptions, I don't consider it unfortunate that other people play this game. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
The balance got away from this game when all the rewards went to the ship getting the most kills.
Uh, they don't? I mean seriously, what are you talking about? Ker'rat the rewards go to whoever gets the most points (which means a combination of scanning nodes and killing the hubs), Fleet events like No Win and Blockade clearly reward teams with healing/CC as well as damage, Pvp 'rewards' (such as they are) go to a combination of healing/dmg, STF drops are purely a matter of luck, and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
The balance got away when only escorts hog all the vary rare End Game gear while cruisers and other types get common gear.
Because, of course, only escorts can do STFs, only players in escorts are allowed to join fleets and use the fleet stores, only escorts can buy dilithium weapons, and even if cruisers do somehow get a purple weapon off the exchange, they can't slot them.

Or, you know, none of that is true.

Look, I get that Starbase 24/Gorn minefields rewards kills because most of the objectives are 'kill X of *shiptype*', but those aren't the only parts of the game, and they aren't even close to the 'best' ways to get end-game gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
The balance got away when the PVP arenas became dominated by escorts and lock box ship that tank and DPS.
Yeah, PVP is not dominated by escorts. PVP is dominated by teams that match up nearly invulnerable heal-boats with spike damage Escorts and sci vessels that use disables to set a ship up for the kill. So, teamwork. Absent teamwork, in a free-for-all scrum, the cruisers should carry the day, since they have the heals/tank to last.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
If I wanted to be bais then I would ask for the cruisers to be the best ships in the game, but you did not see any such words coming for me.
Forgive me for reading between the lines, but:

You want cannons to do less damage, and beams to do more
You want escorts to get less of a bonus from torpedo spread powers, and cruisers to get more
You want cruisers to be more durable, and escorts to be less durable
You want a special modifier on cruisers to increase their damage
You think any resistance to your ideas is part of a 'escort conspiracy', led by the devs, and aiming to invalidate the most popular ship type in the game
etc. etc.

So, yeah, I see a pretty clear bias, even if you don't (and even if you've never said "I love cruisers and hate escorts).
Commander
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 338
# 38
10-30-2012, 07:18 AM
Give up.
Cryptic has thoruroughly proven that it loves escorts and has no regard for balance AT All.


Crusiers will forever be the third wheel i nthis game and never get their due.


The whole SNB thing has grown into ludicrous proportions and its amazing that NOTHING has been done about that stupid op power.



Cruisers and engineers are useless. Escorts aleeady pack more tank than cruisers - thanks to pattern omega (which is a defense super buff), inhate ridiculous defense, their buffed hull value (which in game numbers is basically one cannon volley off crusiers hull value) and with the added defenses they got over time (hp buff, defense overhaul, reworking of tac team, release of new shi pwith acces to more tanking powers) and their still insanely overinflated firepower (something that ruins the game for everyone else) on top of that its difficult to make an argument for any ship class besides perhaps science (for the troll pwoers).

Add int othat the snb crap which outright negates anything a cruiser has going for it and its easy to see why this is is Escort space, not star trek.



First step to fixing cruisers would be to actually give the ma buff to the standard shield distribution function:

- works automatically (perma tac team, basically), meanign the lumbering brick cruiser will always present its full defensive power to the attackers
- inhate resistance to weapon power drain from firing weapons
- all torpedoes fire in volley of 4, torpedo powers multiply that amount by their value (ie HY will get you 8 torps flung at the target, basically cruisers will vomit torps like noones business), torpedo launcher colldowns are doubled.

second step:
- SNB strips only the highest level power on the first appliacation and then 2 more over the course of 15 seconds. SNB applies a resistance to further SNB effects while its running on the target.

Third step:

- Do not nerf escorts. rather use them as the new baseline and bring the other ships up to their level.

The trinity is nice for rpg's, but has no place in a star trek ip. Stop adhering to it.

All ships should be able to dish out damage - albeit via different means. Crusiers will use beam arrays and banks and vomit up a veritable hurricane of torpedoes, escorts beat your face in with brute force cannon attack, sci ships debilitate your defenses and muerder you with a combination of weapons and negative space wedgies.
All ships should be surive - via different tweaks. Cruisers get the brute force bulk approach to tanking, escorts the agile appraoch to damage prevention and sci ships prefer to lock you down and diminish your capabilites.

This trinity thing has doen so much damage to this game already, quit using it. it does not work. it frustrates people to no end to see the posterchilds of star trek be useless hulks of hitpoints.

Last edited by reynoldsxd; 10-30-2012 at 07:25 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,976
# 39
10-30-2012, 07:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reynoldsxd View Post
The whole SNB thing has grown into ludicrous proportions and its amazing that NOTHING has been done about that stupid op power.
SNB is not OP at all the problems occur when you put 5 SNB doffs on an escort

Quote:
Originally Posted by reynoldsxd View Post
Cruisers and engineers are useless. Escorts aleeady pack more tank than cruisers - thanks to pattern omega (which is a defense super buff), inhate ridiculous defense, their buffed hull value (which in game numbers is basically one cannon volley off crusiers hull value) and with the added defenses they got over time (hp buff, defense overhaul, reworking of tac team, release of new shi pwith acces to more tanking powers) and their still insanely overinflated firepower (something that ruins the game for everyone else) on top of that its difficult to make an argument for any ship class besides perhaps science (for the troll pwoers).
Cruisers do pay everything for their tank (if they aren't built perfectly), get them right though and they can be quite nasty. I agree escorts should pay for their firepower, I refuse to use the borg set as it is OP (and is the main contributor to escort tanking) I do still need to respec my tac though to give them more survivability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reynoldsxd View Post
Add into that the snb crap which outright negates anything a cruiser has going for it and its easy to see why this is is Escort space, not star trek.
Lay off SNB will you? It's not the skill at fault, it's the doff

Quote:
Originally Posted by reynoldsxd View Post
First step to fixing cruisers would be to actually give the ma buff to the standard shield distribution function:

- works automatically (perma tac team, basically), meaning the lumbering brick cruiser will always present its full defensive power to the attackers
- inhate resistance to weapon power drain from firing weapons
- all torpedoes fire in volley of 4, torpedo powers multiply that amount by their value (ie HY will get you 8 torps flung at the target, basically cruisers will vomit torps like noones business), torpedo launcher colldowns are doubled.
I love my cruisers but this? No... Perma-TT that's OP, inate resist to weapon drain? I think we could live with that, firing torps like no-ones business? No...

Perhaps give cruisers all 3 team skills as inates with lower cd (to reflect their larger crews)
Inate resist to power drain in general (more power production than the others and could thus compensate for drain)
Just give cruiser torps a buff, give them a reason to lose beam DPS perhaps a cruiser only dual torp launcher? (could viably be mounted both ends due to ship size), escorts get dual cannons and DHCs why can't we have dual torp launchers?
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 40
10-30-2012, 08:11 AM
Quote:
Cryptic has thoruroughly proven that it loves escorts and has no regard for balance AT All.
The first parts biased specualtion with no proof considering there are 29+ cruisers ingame but only 20+ escorts and 25+ Science ships.
The last half may be right though since balance seems screwed.

Quote:
Crusiers will forever be the third wheel i nthis game and never get their due.
Biased BS.

Quote:
The whole SNB thing has grown into ludicrous proportions and its amazing that NOTHING has been done about that stupid op power.
You should ahve been here before they nerfed it downto what it is today.



Quote:
Cruisers and engineers are useless.
They work as healer/Support class very well.

Quote:
Escorts aleeady pack more tank than cruisers - thanks to pattern omega (which is a defense super buff)
What super buff? The 15 second +x damage resist or the 5 +% defense boost? Both are short lived and niether can get past the defense cap.
In fact a few Cruisers can even use ApO themselves.

Quote:
inhate ridiculous defense,
You mean that extra 10% bonus defense from moving?

Quote:
their buffed hull value
What buffed hull?

Quote:
and with the added defenses they got over time (hp buff, defense overhaul, reworking of tac team, release of new shi pwith acces to more tanking powers)
What defenses overtime? Everybody can use TT the same as any Escort? WHat new more tanky ship?



Quote:
and their still insanely overinflated firepower (something that ruins the game for everyone else)
Which grew in direct response to the Cruiser insane healing........

Quote:
Add int othat the snb crap which outright negates anything a cruiser has going for it and its easy to see why this is is Escort space, not star trek.
Escorts don't use SNB. Science captains do and a Science captain can fly any ship. SO any ship can use SNB. Its not an Escort only thing.


Quote:
First step to fixing cruisers would be to actually give the ma buff to the standard shield distribution function:

- works automatically (perma tac team, basically), meanign the lumbering brick cruiser will always present its full defensive power to the attackers
What? Tactical team is unfair on an Escort even though everyone can use TT ingame, but a permanent TT effect for shield distribution is fair for Cruisers?????
Quote:
- inhate resistance to weapon power drain from firing weapons
You mean like the Engineer Captain abilities?

Quote:
- all torpedoes fire in volley of 4, torpedo powers multiply that amount by their value (ie HY will get you 8 torps flung at the target, basically cruisers will vomit torps like noones business), torpedo launcher colldowns are doubled.
and Cruisers should get special Torpedo rules as well????


In PvE the problem with the Cruisers lies in that the NPCs are dealt with only by direct applied damage.
In PvP the problem with the Cruisers is a willingness for the playerbase to accept thier role is not as a Direct DD vessel even though agressive Tac/Cruiser pairings are possible.
Roy Hatch (stryker) soldier, friend, and good man.
1945-2014
RIP
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