Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 525
# 51
10-30-2012, 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
The first parts biased specualtion with no proof considering there are 29+ cruisers ingame but only 20+ escorts and 25+ Science ships.
The last half may be right though since balance seems screwed.


Biased BS.

You should ahve been here before they nerfed it downto what it is today.



They work as healer/Support class very well.

What super buff? The 15 second +x damage resist or the 5 +% defense boost? Both are short lived and niether can get past the defense cap.
In fact a few Cruisers can even use ApO themselves.

You mean that extra 10% bonus defense from moving?

What buffed hull?

What defenses overtime? Everybody can use TT the same as any Escort? WHat new more tanky ship?



Which grew in direct response to the Cruiser insane healing........


Escorts don't use SNB. Science captains do and a Science captain can fly any ship. SO any ship can use SNB. Its not an Escort only thing.


What? Tactical team is unfair on an Escort even though everyone can use TT ingame, but a permanent TT effect for shield distribution is fair for Cruisers?????
You mean like the Engineer Captain abilities?

and Cruisers should get special Torpedo rules as well????


In PvE the problem with the Cruisers lies in that the NPCs are dealt with only by direct applied damage.
In PvP the problem with the Cruisers is a willingness for the playerbase to accept thier role is not as a Direct DD vessel even though agressive Tac/Cruiser pairings are possible.
1.) Number of ships are irrelevant, the fact is that the game mechanics favor escorts over everything else.

2.) I have been here since the game launched (actually a bit earlier in the OB).
I have seen and experienced everything from beginning to end. Starting with the wonderful combo of VM and snb lockdowns, using jam sensors to pull out sci teams, the fact that all ships had RSP as the only vialbe tankign skill, where cruisers dies i none escort pass, where everyone was complaining abut the array-ball of lame (hence the beam array getting nerfed 20% i n damage - without that ever being undone despite all ships getting defense upgrades in terms of base hp {yes, the base hp of all ships got raised, so the glass cannon escorts now are solid prize boxer jaws, whiel the buff to cruisers hp amounts to jack shiite since cannon dps simply is so much out of whack and inflated - all the while leaviong all other weapons at an even worse place.} and game mechanics thusly negating the reason the arrays got nerfed.)

3.) APO grants the escort immunity to the very thing that game mechanically was intended to kil lit: locking it down in movement impeeding powers, like warp plasma, like tractor beam. it also buffs defenses when flying SLOWER than top speed, thusly giving escorts more time to whack away with thir cannons.
Said cannons, at the VERY bginning of the game nuked cruisers almost instantly unless rsp was used. THAT lead to the several revamps to tanking. THAT lead to the era of invul-cruisers because the devs are just that dense. Then came the mitigation caps.

Curiously, NEVER did it occur to them to review the core problem - to few hp on ships and shields combined with guns that do too much damage.
Instead of simply upping the hp pools, they went for boff power based mitigation with has send us into a maddening cycle of buffs and revamps that left the escorts standing as the most efficient ship.


4.) I complain about snb on escorts mostly because that simply is the worst combination.

You give the ship that can burn down other ships fast the ability to strip those ships of their defensive, offensive and utility powers and increases the cd's AND almost requires said ship to sacrifice a slot on sci team and then go ahead and create doffs that massivly boosts the number of snb's it can churn out.

And then you wonder why people complain. SNB, with its "STRIP ALL THE BUFFS!" approach is simply put totally out of line compared to other captain powers (engineers, anyone?) and the continued refusal to aknowledge that is baffling me still today.
This is a power that uterly and completly negates ALL powers the opposing captain has used. ALL of them. INSTANTLY.
It was broken at the beginning, it was broken along the middle its even more broken today.
VM got a nice tweak that turned it from a total lockdown power into a shutdown that applys its nasty effect over a duration. Snb should do the same.


5.) Making shield distribution depend on tactical team was and is another moronic move on crpytics part.

It is a fact that the inhate shield redistribution does absolutely nothing since the magnitude of shields shifted is laughably small, the recharge of that power is to long and you have to hammer the buttong or use a script to even use it.

Now, escorts are not affected by this, they are agile enough to just move the shield arc they want towards the enemy + they have an abundance of tac slots for tac teams.

Cruisers however cannot move like that, they also have very few tac slots.
They are forced (oh sci ships too, btw) to use TAc teams, its VITAL to them. They literally cannot go without.

So you either have to rework shield redistribution as a whole or give cruisers(and sci ships) a boon. Because right now you are again, with game meachanics, favoring escorts.



6.) As i said: the whole trinity thing is a terrible idea. I alrady explained why over several dozen threads over the past years.
Abridged: Every ship class should be able to do damage and heal itself roughly equally well. The diversification should stem from: how said damage is achieved, how they heal up, how they handle (tieeing into how they deal damage).

Example:

Crusiers heal themselves with hots (both hul land shields get restored over time, no isntant heals) that include mitigation, they tank with mitigation and they attack via arrays, beam banks and volleys of torpedoes - because they are cruisers and have the room to house all those torpedo's and launchers. They are the logical choice for a ship that bombards others. (naturally one can switch out weapons to modify that behaviour - spamming mines, using single cannons etc)


Science ships heal themselves via drains (basically drain life so to speak), wrangles (steals part of your stats and adds it to theirs), they defend via illusions, anomalies and technobabble (basicaly powers that grant immunity for a duration, defense, buffs, resitances etc). They attack with negative space wedgies and weapons.


Escorts heal themselves via instant heals that are on a cooldown, they tank with movement related powers that lower incoming accuracy, increase defense or give outright dodge chances. They attack in short but power full bursts aimed at attriting the defense of their target and making break throughs. Hots do not instant heal after all.
They cannot survive sitting some palce and taking fire since their heals are on cooldowns and have no over time component that yields further healing.




See, now all ships classses can basically do the same, but simply do it differently. They still have specialitys that when added and combined with other classes yield good results for teams working together.



Ships stats, weapon stats etc would have to be thoroughly redone of course so please do not start yapping about stats and exact numbers.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 95
# 52
10-30-2012, 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
Obvious is such a strong word. You are aware of the simple fact that D'deridex NPCs are using Viral Matrix, right? I mean, it even shows a funny debuff icon when you've been hit with it. Can't see any cheating here. Next time it's probably better to just wait till VM deactivates your engines before using a battery or just stay out of its front arc.

High-Yield plasma torpedo salvos are the D'deridex' special ability. What's wrong with that? Nothing different than having special consoles on C-Store ships. They are stonger but so incredible slow, that I can't even remember when the last one hit me. Also your fireing arc argument sounds quite funny when you think about the Feds Wide Angle Quantum Torpedo Launcher, doesn't it? Dare those evil NPCs, why do they have something only us players are allowed to have. How are we supposed to kill them now?

STO NPCs are stupid. They are so stupid that it's probably not possible to dumb them down any further, so you should be happy that there are a few NPC ships with at least a couple scripted abilities.
1) It was not Viral Matrix... I know it because there was no debuff icon when it happened, also the weapons went out first, then the engines when I tried to evade, not at the same time, so it was too fast for a recharge.

2) as for the fire arc on the torps, they have been doing that for months, so it is not the new console... and Heavy torps? For Heavy or High Yield torps there is no way to forie that many at one time. Have you ever fired a high yield plasma? it becomes a single slow projectile... which the D'deridex fires four at a time... along with the cannon fire, and beam arrays... so are you trying to tell me it has 16 weapon placements? because that is what it would have to have to use all the weapons it does... maybe more. So really, your arguements are not valid. It IS a cheat ship, and it IS obvious.
Vice Admiral Ross
and others too numerous to name...
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 53
10-30-2012, 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericandrewross View Post
1) It was not Viral Matrix... I know it because there was no debuff icon when it happened, also the weapons went out first, then the engines when I tried to evade, not at the same time, so it was too fast for a recharge.

2) as for the fire arc on the torps, they have been doing that for months, so it is not the new console... and Heavy torps? For Heavy or High Yield torps there is no way to forie that many at one time. Have you ever fired a high yield plasma? it becomes a single slow projectile... which the D'deridex fires four at a time... along with the cannon fire, and beam arrays... so are you trying to tell me it has 16 weapon placements? because that is what it would have to have to use all the weapons it does... maybe more. So really, your arguements are not valid. It IS a cheat ship, and it IS obvious.
I really don't see why you have an issue with a d'deridex. That particular D'deridex is a special one. With borg technology. So naturally, it's like Donatra's Scimitar. It doesn't play by the same rules we do. If it did it would be too easy.

So stop complaining when you run up against an enemy that you can't just face-roll half asleep that has the ability to possibly kill you.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 54
10-31-2012, 01:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericandrewross View Post
1) It was not Viral Matrix... I know it because there was no debuff icon when it happened, also the weapons went out first, then the engines when I tried to evade, not at the same time, so it was too fast for a recharge.

2) as for the fire arc on the torps, they have been doing that for months, so it is not the new console... and Heavy torps? For Heavy or High Yield torps there is no way to forie that many at one time. Have you ever fired a high yield plasma? it becomes a single slow projectile... which the D'deridex fires four at a time... along with the cannon fire, and beam arrays... so are you trying to tell me it has 16 weapon placements? because that is what it would have to have to use all the weapons it does... maybe more. So really, your arguements are not valid. It IS a cheat ship, and it IS obvious.
1) It has to be Viral Matrix, cause that's what D'deridex ships do when you get into their front arc. The only other sci power they use is PSW and that won't shut down your subsystem. The funny colored character names at the end of your post suggest you have at least 3 sci characters. Please take a closer look at how Viral Matrix actually works. It is no instant all system shutdown, it will randomly take off 1 subsystem after another (with the exception of shields).

2) I know they are doing it for a long time now. The wide angle torp was a comparison and to make it really clear: Why should Fed ships be able to shoot wide angle torps but not Romulan ships? To repeat it for you. The High-Yield Plasma salvo is the D'deridex' special ability, like Ablative Generator is an Intrepids special ability or this massive torp spread is the Armitages special ability. I'm not sure how to make it clearer for you, it's not cheating, just special. Cheating would be magic invulnerability or random kills out of nowhere. These NPCs you are talking about have easy to counter scripted attacks in limited numbers. They'll use them as soon as possible on you and often enough only once.

P.S. To add to it further, I've leveld a fed character not long ago and if I remember correctly there are 3 named "boss" D'deridex Warbirds during the Romulan campaign. I can't rembember any special power putting them ahead of common D'deridex. They are stronger and have more hitpoints, that's it. NPC torpedoes in STO are usually a bit stronger than player torpedoes to counter the laughable amount of damage said NPCs are dealing with their energy weapons. That's because NPC ships usually run a standard 50 in all subsystem settings and thus won't deal any meaningful damage.
-----------------------
decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010

Last edited by decker03; 10-31-2012 at 01:50 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,078
# 55
10-31-2012, 02:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiphenon View Post
LoL, according to you any healer in this game lacks skil because he does no DPS in his cruiser.


Of course, also cruiser can deal damage. But no cruiser, will deal more damage than an escort. So, an escort can tank endgame content as well as an cruiser, whats the point of flying a cruiser anyway?

It is nothing wrong with the damage of cruisers, however, escorts because of several "broken" powers are much to tanky.

Nerf escort tanking! The average escort pilot only needs to get the borg set, 3 blue+ shield dsitribution officer and set engine to full impuls.
first, why do you think i wrote "MOST" in my post, and why do you turn that word into "ANY"?
It is no secret that most captain kirks out there use cruisers and fire pretty rainbows, while sending boarding partys on transformers and generators. Cruisers are the most played shipclass in STO (atleast thats what i experiance), naturally most "less experianced" players will be using cruisers...often just because they like the design or think they are JL Picard and are therefore entitled win allways.

No escort can tank a gate or a tac cube endlessly and deal dmg...it simply doesn't work that way. However it can get out of the 10km and still keep aggro and simply wait for powers to recharge or to repair, but in that time it is more or less useless.
Any cruiser can hang in the fight against those boss enemies, endlessly.

however it is true that escorts that invest heavily into healing abilities, can hang in the fight a long time, actually most bosses blow up before the escort runs out of heals if the grp is any good.
i agree that this way of escort setup is too conveniant, since there are not much powers to put into ensign and ltd sci and engi other than heals.

if the tank/healer/DD would actually work in this game, escorts would be using less heals and more offensive abilities in those slots.

Anyway, i do agree more or less that escorts are a bit too tanky, but i don't see the solution in nerfing or buffing the ships. I think the grp content needs to be bend towards using ship classes as they are intended to function.
more missions like starbase blockade, or no win scenario are needed. I'm sorry to see that the new romulan mission in the azura nebula is a step away from that, since it is a pure DPS run.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 10-31-2012 at 02:17 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 56
10-31-2012, 04:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
Anyway, i do agree more or less that escorts are a bit too tanky, but i don't see the solution in nerfing or buffing the ships. I think the grp content needs to be bend towards using ship classes as they are intended to function.
more missions like starbase blockade, or no win scenario are needed. I'm sorry to see that the new romulan mission in the azura nebula is a step away from that, since it is a pure DPS run.
With Season 7 right at the front door, all this "nerf escort tanking" cryout is no longer necessary, isn't it? The Borg set gets adjusted as does the Shield Distribution Officer, so I guess soon we'll have more threads about people crying about their escorts being too squishy again. At least those people that still have to believe in invisible Borg torpedos to explain a lack of combat tactics or build will have an even harder time to stay alive then.
-----------------------
decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,078
# 57
10-31-2012, 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by decker03 View Post
With Season 7 right at the front door, all this "nerf escort tanking" cryout is no longer necessary, isn't it? The Borg set gets adjusted as does the Shield Distribution Officer, so I guess soon we'll have more threads about people crying about their escorts being too squishy again. At least those people that still have to believe in invisible Borg torpedos to explain a lack of combat tactics or build will have an even harder time to stay alive then.
will probably be like you say. a nerf is actually incoming anyway.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,160
# 58
10-31-2012, 06:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
a nerf is actually incoming anyway.
One that doesn't affect me as I will not use the borg set and don't use shield dist doffs for some or other reason (probably something to do with them being tied to a skill I don't use)

I will still be able to cycle EPtS and run aux2SIF constantly with TT when possible. I might give up ST on my primary escort build to have HE but yeah, I don't suffer from this nerf in any way shape or form
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,078
# 59
10-31-2012, 07:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
One that doesn't affect me as I will not use the borg set and don't use shield dist doffs for some or other reason (probably something to do with them being tied to a skill I don't use)

I will still be able to cycle EPtS and run aux2SIF constantly with TT when possible. I might give up ST on my primary escort build to have HE but yeah, I don't suffer from this nerf in any way shape or form
yeah that explains a lot...still 2 main reasons for escorts survivability are getting nerfed in season 7.
actually this nerf affects also my cruiser and carrier heavily, but the borg set nerf had to come, really devaluated all other sets.

PS: hard to believe for me that somebody would not want to use the cheapest and best set in the game...what reason would that be that actually would explain that? It must be a sentimental thing, since gameplay technically there is none.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 10-31-2012 at 07:43 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,160
# 60
10-31-2012, 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
PS: hard to believe for me that somebody would not want to use the cheapest and best set in the game...what reason would that be that actually would explain that? It must be a sentimental thing, since gameplay technically there is none.
I outright refuse to use anything in the game that is overpowered (I do own the set as I am a collector of them). I fail to see the appeal of something that takes away from the challenge of the game and removes 90% of the skill needed to do well. The problem with this long overdue nerf is that it will cause a lot of "Oh no, my escort keeps dying, this can't be allowed!" and more "Please buff my poor, poor cruiser" on the forums, although we will start to see better played escorts from those who bother to adapt and the number of noob cruisers will sadly go up.

I think the game would survive a small change to cruisers or to NPCs making Jack of all trades cruisers a viable option again something that would improve variety of builds in game some of which is a good thing, obviously it will make more noob builds more common but that's just a negative side effect of a good thing.

Bottom line on the borg set (as is) as far as I'm concerned it's an 'I win set' and therefore should never be used by anyone who calls themselves a skilled player
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:25 PM.