Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 1 This Week's Cruiser Thread
11-01-2012, 04:20 AM
I was noticing the forum was lacking in a cruiser thread, and since I know it's customary for there to be one either each patch or at least weekly, I have thus started it.

Now for the usual blah blah blah, cruisers suck, blah blah blah, make us a god ship.

Ok, that's done and over with.

Now for the real reason behind this post. I really want to know. How many of you think cruisers are under/over/just right on power level and ability. And I want to know why. Lastly, I don't want opinions mixed with facts. I don't want anyone to argue that someone else's point is moot, or bias, or total bs. I only want you to say what you think is the case, and then leave it at that. Feel free to read other's posts, but I would prefer you guys not start attacking each other.

Basically I am asking you guys to keep it clean, and just put your thoughts out there. Engage!
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,939
# 2
11-01-2012, 05:40 AM
personally, though i do not think cruisers are underpowered in any way that matters, believe they could get a +1 or even +2 turnrate increase. All of them, except the vor'cha...10 should be the upper limit for cruiser turnrate.
The negh'var is a perfect example of how cruisers should be able to maneuver.
Also a little inertia increase would go well along with that in my opinion.
Some of them just feel too clumsy.
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Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 60
# 3
11-01-2012, 05:53 AM
I personally think that cruisers need moar tac options without looking at the c-store offerings,Excelsior/Regent im looking at you.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,757
# 4
11-01-2012, 05:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
personally, though i do not think cruisers are underpowered in any way that matters, believe they could get a +1 or even +2 turnrate increase. All of them, except the vor'cha...10 should be the upper limit for cruiser turnrate.
The negh'var is a perfect example of how cruisers should be able to maneuver.
Also a little inertia increase would go well along with that in my opinion.
Some of them just feel too clumsy.
This^ .

Some new weapons, new BOff abilities added to the game
A turnrate buff and I think the "Cruiser is weak" issue will be solved.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,912
# 5
11-01-2012, 06:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
I was noticing the forum was lacking in a cruiser thread, and since I know it's customary for there to be one either each patch or at least weekly, I have thus started it.
I could help but laugh about this

Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Now for the usual blah blah blah, cruisers suck, blah blah blah, make us a god ship.
Been there, done that... the Vesta is on its way to a store near you...

As for what I feel is up with cruisers is all the indirect nerfs by the simplification of the game, the removal of any viable Jack of all trades builds (a move I really don't like) and throughout this they have had no enhancement or adjustment to suit the current game climate.

I mean cruisers can do two things at a time:
DPS/Tank
DPS/Heal
Tank/Heal

All these combinations they do well but when you try for a balance of DPS/Tank/Heal it falls flat on it's face unable to do any of them. This is where cruisers need adjusting so that they can fill all these roles simultaneously with an advantage in tanking over the others, this would be balanced as due to the team healing capacity would reduce damage output a little however I think all we need to facilitate that though is a small buff to beam damage as it only takes 3 DHCs to match the output of 6 beam arrays at a far better price in power; anything more on that is 100% profit.

Over than that I think cruisers are ok, they just need targets in game that don't die to burst damage and NEED the sustained output from beams to make them desirable again.

Last edited by adamkafei; 11-01-2012 at 06:10 AM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 205
# 6
11-01-2012, 06:19 AM
Speaking from my own personal experience, I don't really have any problems with cruisers where they are right now. With my Regent class, I can solo tank the tactical cube in ISE while putting out quite a bit of sustained damage. That seems right on target.

However, I do feel that a Fleet Regent is in order with +10% hull/shields and 1 extra Tac console. Same thing with a Fleet Dreadnaught and Fleet Excelsior (even if certain abilities need to be made consoles to do it). With ships like the Vesta out there, I feel this is needed to keep cruisers competitive (and keep these out of the Tier 5 shipyard. Tier 2 or 3 would be just right).
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,966
# 7
11-01-2012, 06:32 AM
I believe they are sub-optimal in PvE for the most part as their role can currently be filled by an escort due to several factors.

1) Role, in group PvE (Estfs) an escort can be tanky enough that they do not need a healer or tank. In said situation it is more effective to have the DPS increase that an escort would bring regardless of if they bring 10% more DPS or 50% more. That said this should be addressed in S7 with the borg set nerf, the BFI doff nerf and the change to cubes where they can fire torps into their blindspot now.

2) In solo PvE the goal is to smash the mission as quickly as humanly possible. Cruisers are at a disadvantage again due to the lower DPS and much slower travel speed. My escorts typically don't even get to go into full impulse between NPC groups. This could be solved by granting cruisers (and Sci) perhaps an increased interact speed with objects or something similar but it really isn't a big deal.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,462
# 8
11-01-2012, 06:36 AM
This post is about PVE. PVP is fundamentally different and requires a completely different approach to balance which STO doesn't even attempt.

Cruisers are underpowered.

A well built escort can fly so fast and so evasively that whatever damage DOES stick to them can usually be shrugged off even with their lesser healing abilities. A stationary escort is less durable than a stationary cruiser, but a stationary escort is suicidal so it's not really a useful comparison. Occasionally escorts will just spontaneously explode with no chance to throw a bandaid on the holes in the hull, but generally speaking, they kill things so fast that the numbers facing them swing in their favor very quickly: an uber-escort can wipe out a formation of 4 or 5 spheres in seconds, while in my cruiser I engage one target at a time, taking a minute to kill each one, and I am forced to face the enemy's overwhelming firepower for a longer span of time.

Cruisers have less firepower, fewer tactical abilities, and the tactical abilities for beams are fundamentally poorer than the ones for cannons; cruisers generally have fewer tactical consoles and weapon power buffs; cruisers generally have about 20% more hull and shields than escorts, in exchange for at least 50% less maneuverability which makes it extremely difficult for them to dictate combat range and facings; and their vaunted durability really only means that fights either drag on indefinitely or you get buried under an avalanche of enemy firepower that you can't repel or get away from. Defense doesn't win fights: hurting the other guy faster than he can hurt you is what wins fights.

I feel like I'm contributing to the team in my cruiser, but as a cheerleader, or that guy keeping the drinks cold while the actual players are out there winning. Stay in the rear, throw torpedoes, heal the escorts mixing it up in the mid field. The team would probably be better served by another escort that can help them kill the enemy even faster because the faster you kill, the less damage you take and the more irrelevant healing becomes. The only cruiser I have that actually feels like I can be a player instead of a cheerleader is the Vor'cha, with its not-terrible maneuverability and its ability to mount dual cannons. Use that as a baseline for what cruisers SHOULD be capable of.

Do I seem annoyed? >_>

Last edited by momaw; 11-01-2012 at 06:40 AM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 93
# 9
11-01-2012, 06:48 AM
To be honest, their healing ability is pretty good. Also, their dps is pretty good as well (namely if you stack beams and use EPTW or DEM).

I think, however, that the biggest crux behind them is the slow turn rate. Now, with that said, we all know why that is the case. But I think that we could give some love to their turning ability (namely because Fed cruisers don't use cannons --- don't mention the galx please, I pretend that ship doesn't exist).

Like someone else said, a 10 should be the maximum cap, and that should only be for a few. But, for example, keeping a Regent's rate as low as it is is a little silly in my view.

Giving them more tac boff options might be called for as well. Perhaps in the form of universal boffs.

But you guys can't honestly expect a ship to be able to fulfil three roles
at the same time. That's silly. I'd like a ship that can heal, do great DPS, and tank (insert Vesta joke here -- sorry PWEcrew, I just had to), but that expectation is just misplaced.

You can already tank, you can already heal, and you can do good damage already. If some of you are having trouble doing the latter, look up some threads on these forums, as they offer some good help.

Turn rate adjustments, and maybe some boff adjustments, would make the ship class perfect. It really would. Think about that Borticus.



I'll use this to also plug my request to buff the Nebula's turn rate by one or two points. Purty please! In the pilot episode of DS9, a Nebula and Ambassador pull a pretty tight turn into an attack run.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 84
# 10
11-01-2012, 07:23 AM
Think they're spot on atm tbh. I'm a Tac captain and prefer to play in a cruiser (in offensive mode) due to their far superior staying power over an escort at the cost of a little damage output.

I think the way to increase their worth would be to allow ship damage at normal difficulty, that way escorts would have an increased cost with their usage in PvE which would then permit the choice of cruisers to offset that cost.

Allowing captains the choice is the key. If you truly want to know if they're OP/UP sit outside DS9 for bit, the cruisers still outnumber the escorts considerably, and if the escorts really were that OP you'd see far more of them than you do atm.

ETA: As for the turn rate there's a perfectly good eng console to boost that (I know because I use it on all my cruiser builds).
***The above ramblings are, as always, my own opinion. Based on my experiences and interpreted by my mind, they by no means reflect the universal truth (unless coincidentally). Peace.***
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