Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,642
"Reduced all Duty Officer input requirements on Fleet Starbase Projects
If a project previously required only White duty officers, the number required has been decreased . "

Really?? So now it will take a solo player 1 months to get to tier 3 starbase?

You may or may not know my solo Fleet "Starbase 001" FULLY completed a Tier 3 starbase several weeks ago.


BY MYSELF - and I did not spend a dime on it other than my gold monthly stipend.

I started right at the begining before there was the fleet vendor - before the fleet vendor kurfuffle(?)

So since this change can only help out people up to tier 3 - as then it switches to 2 sections of doffs - I have to ask - why?

If 1 person can meet the existing doff requirements and finish a Tier 3 starbase 2 weeks ago - without the fleet vendor for what several weeks at least - any fleet with 5 players - let alone 10+ should be able to get the doffs required while sleepwalking through the process!

So that is the question Zero - if I could under the old system complete a tier 3 starbase with the original system of even more limited doff availibily - why does the doff requirements need to be lowered?

If this is done - I will start a new fleet and complete a tier 3 base in under 2 months - just to show what a mockery of a system - this LONG-TERM - based on 25 players- construction pocess is.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 426
# 102
11-05-2012, 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by levi3 View Post
why does the doff requirements need to be lowered?
1. Not everyone is as... 'devoted' as you are.
2. The cost to use the doff-grinder has increased significantly.
3. Reputation projects and Embassy holdings now consume resources as well.
4. The General Recruitment doff pack now costs a lot more.
5. Because (as far as I can tell), the curve is dramatically uneven. At Tier 0-Tier 1, time is the primary gating factor, whereas as you get into higher tiers, cost is the primary gating factor. This seems to be designed to attempt to flatten the curve somewhat.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,642
# 103
11-05-2012, 10:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squishkin View Post
1. Not everyone is as... 'devoted' as you are.
2. The cost to use the doff-grinder has increased significantly.
3. Reputation projects and Embassy holdings now consume resources as well.
4. The General Recruitment doff pack now costs a lot more.
5. Because (as far as I can tell), the curve is dramatically uneven. At Tier 0-Tier 1, time is the primary gating factor, whereas as you get into higher tiers, cost is the primary gating factor. This seems to be designed to attempt to flatten the curve somewhat.
There is NO major change in the curve until after Tier 3 - then it goes vertical. So reducing 1-3 does not make sense.

"It was a dedicated experiment for me" - true - but under the current system if I was to start over it would take no more than 2 months doing the same - and I barely used the duty packs from the academy - so does not make sense again.

currently common doffs are 1/2 or 1/3 the price on the exchange that they were. Does not make sense to lower.

There was no fleet vendor when I started - now there is - does not make sense to lower.

Doff grinder cost is irrelevent when talking about commons - I did not usde it to upgride to green then down grind to common again - lowering does not make sense again.

Yes embassy is new but my fall back MAIN position:

Given ALL the harder inputs and less outputs of doffs that were availible to me - 1 person - one person - me and only me - numero uno - just 1 and only 1 could complete a TIER 3 t-i-e-r THREE starbase in 3 1/2 months!!

For a "fleet' which usually mean 5+ there is ZERO(no pun intended) that they could not do the same without any doff reductions in the same amout of time!

The system was built off 25 people - so that makes what I was able to accomplish is just over 3 months - PROVE that tier 0-3 is EXTREMELY EASY

Nothing can dispute that given my accomplishment and the data used to construct current starbase requirements.

No reduction below Tier 3 is needed.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 426
# 104
11-05-2012, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by levi3 View Post
There is NO major change in the curve until after Tier 3 - then it goes vertical. So reducing 1-3 does not make sense.
But cost was never the major factor at 1-3, so reducing the cost there is of less relevance.

Quote:
currently common doffs are 1/2 or 1/3 the price on the exchange that they were. Does not make sense to lower.
Some doffs are cheap, and some or not. Consider, say, Security Officer doffs.

Quote:
There was no fleet vendor when I started - now there is - does not make sense to lower.
As the exchange demonstrates, this doesn't drop the cost of all doffs.

Quote:
Doff grinder cost is irrelevent when talking about commons - I did not usde it to upgride to green then down grind to common again - lowering does not make sense again.
Not all doffs required for projects are commons. Some are, but as the notes point out, that's not the only change made.

Quote:
No reduction below Tier 3 is needed.
I think you're entirely missing the point. Nobody is suggesting that it can't be done.

As I said, it's my impression that up to about T3 time is the gating factor, not cost. Reducing cost below T3 doesn't change that but it does flatten the curve above T3.

Tell me, by the way. How much did you spend getting your starbase to T3? In dilithium and EC?

Edit: Because the plural of anecdote is data, my fleet has about 200 members in it and we haven't yet reached T3. I personally have about 1.1m lifetime fleet credit.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,642
# 105
11-05-2012, 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squishkin View Post
Tell me, by the way. How much did you spend getting your starbase to T3? In dilithium and EC?

Edit: Because the plural of anecdote is data, my fleet has about 200 members in it and we haven't yet reached T3. I personally have about 1.1m lifetime fleet credit.
The dilth cost are set - you can count them up for yourself - I did almost all assignments the DOFF only assignemts for 1000xp

That's another reason I can tell you doff requirements ARE NOT the problem.

for the first 2 months Security doffs were 300k each - sensor doffs were as high as $1.6 million

Security now is $90 and sensor $150 - that is chump change by comparison. 1/3 and 1/10th the cost

That is not the Problem

DOFF requirements do NOT need to be lowered tier 0-3 - as I said I used ZERO - $0 dollars on the base other than my 500 zen Gold sub stipend

The real problem for smaller fleets is DILTHIUM requirements - not doffs.

If you have 200 people in your fleet then doffs are NOT the problem - if they are there is something MAJORLY wrong.

Zero please listen - doffs requirements are not the problem going to T0 - T3 - I have proved that - with my solo starbase. These things were supposed to take time - i built a T3 in over 3 months by myself - If you lower doff requirements you are going to make the building of these things as long-term project a TOTAL FARSE!
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,446
# 106
11-05-2012, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squishkin View Post
But cost was never the major factor at 1-3, so reducing the cost there is of less relevance.
Considering it was already a fairly achievable solo project and trivial to fleets smaller than those the system was balanced around, not just "of less relevance" but "fully irrelevant." Reduction of a trivial value is trivial.

As for at higher tiers: The uncommon inputs rapidly exceed the standard recruitment rate of even the largest fleets, in part due to the rarity check and primarily due to requiring specific departments, and require literally millions of fleet credits burned in boxes to fill by brute force. And these are projects that a maxed fleet would have run a total of 300 to 450 times.

These are the major limiters for most fleets, reducing them to commons and broadening the accepted inputs from specializations to departments alleviates that pressure, but also massively increases the total doff inputs, prompting the distributed reduction.

But that's not the end of the story yet: New fleets are now saddled with an embassy in addition to their starbase. This has roughly doubled the total resource load on a new fleet, and more than doubled it on doffs thanks to the high doff inputs on the initial projects (50 for 1200 xp vs. 7 or 24 for 1000). And because of embassies lower XP bars, it's steepened the curve.

Also note that embassy projects aren't included in the reduction. Even with the reduction, this is a net increase in doff load on all fleets. In fact, even eliminating them outright from starbase projects would still leave this being a net increase of 28 doffs per cycle at tier 0, and extrapolating the embassy curve it should remain a net increase until the embassy is capped and the Starbase is part way through tier 2.

Last edited by hevach; 11-05-2012 at 11:44 AM.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 426
# 107
11-05-2012, 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
Considering it was already a fairly achievable solo project and trivial to fleets smaller than those the system was balanced around, not just "of less relevance" but "fully irrelevant." Reduction of a trivial value is trivial.
I didn't want to go there because I think that moving from T2 to T3 isn't trivial; it certainly isn't as easy as going from T0-T1, but it's not utterly trivial. Still, I believe I had written that before I edited it to what it now is.

Quote:
Also note that embassy projects aren't included in the reduction. Even with the reduction, this is a net increase in doff load on all fleets. In fact, even eliminating them outright from starbase projects would still leave this being a net increase of 28 doffs per cycle at tier 0, and extrapolating the embassy curve it should remain a net increase until the embassy is capped and the Starbase is part way through tier 2.
Interesting. So perhaps Levi is getting what he wants. It's going to be harder in the early tiers. :p
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,642
# 108
11-05-2012, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
Considering it was already a fairly achievable solo project and trivial to fleets smaller than those the system was balanced around, not just "of less relevance" but "fully irrelevant." Reduction of a trivial value is trivial.

As for at higher tiers: The uncommon inputs rapidly exceed the standard recruitment rate of even the largest fleets, in part due to the rarity check and primarily due to requiring specific departments, and require literally millions of fleet credits burned in boxes to fill by brute force. And these are projects that a maxed fleet would have run a total of 300 to 450 times.

These are the major limiters for most fleets, reducing them to commons and broadening the accepted inputs from specializations to departments alleviates that pressure, but also massively increases the total doff inputs, prompting the distributed reduction.

But that's not the end of the story yet: New fleets are now saddled with an embassy in addition to their starbase. This has roughly doubled the total resource load on a new fleet, and more than doubled it on doffs thanks to the high doff inputs on the initial projects (50 for 1200 xp vs. 7 or 24 for 1000). And because of embassies lower XP bars, it's steepened the curve.

Also note that embassy projects aren't included in the reduction. Even with the reduction, this is a net increase in doff load on all fleets. In fact, even eliminating them outright from starbase projects would still leave this being a net increase of 28 doffs per cycle at tier 0, and extrapolating the embassy curve it should remain a net increase until the embassy is capped and the Starbase is part way through tier 2.
Ok so the embassy system will add to the "burden" , and I guess in most ways you are correct in it being a trivial adjustment - but not for that factor, for the reason that probably 80% of the fleets created are already past tier 2 and well on their way to tier 3.

However, for solo fleets this is going to make it rediculously easy to get to tier 3 if you don't do the embassy - and even if you do it - so what if a solo fleet takes a year to reach tier 3?
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,474
# 109
11-05-2012, 12:57 PM
Any and all lowered requirements are welcome in my opinion. Some of us have school, jobs, and a life! I have a couple of two person fleets, neither of which have reached T1 yet. One is close but I got bored of the grind and the other wasn't interested in the grind. I bought some DL to help with these things and so on but it just burns people out from wanting to bother. This is a game that is supposed to be fun! If I have to put in 8 hours a day to make progress, I'll find something else to play!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,642
# 110
11-05-2012, 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcsww View Post
Any and all lowered requirements are welcome in my opinion. Some of us have school, jobs, and a life! I have a couple of two person fleets, neither of which have reached T1 yet. One is close but I got bored of the grind and the other wasn't interested in the grind. I bought some DL to help with these things and so on but it just burns people out from wanting to bother. This is a game that is supposed to be fun! If I have to put in 8 hours a day to make progress, I'll find something else to play!
They could easily say - the system was designed for a fleet of 25 casual players - wait they have!!

So a 2 person fleet should take 13x as long as a 25 person casual fleet to reach tier 3

If they designed a 25 person fleet to reach tier 3 in 2 months that means a 2 person fleet should reach tier 3 in 13x 2 or 26 months - or about 2 years.

That is how the system was designed.

I will say this 100x if necessary - with the fleet vendor this is NOT a doff problem - the real problem in starbases for smaller fleets is Dilth and marks.

Last edited by levi3; 11-05-2012 at 01:04 PM.
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