Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 91
11-04-2012, 11:00 PM
Support ships always get the short end of the stick. They are invaluable, but often under-appreciated. Especially after everything is said and done. Unfortunately, this is basically turning into another "Cruiser are underpowered, buff them" thread. Tbh, I am getting tired of people saying this over and over, and then offering silly ways for that to not be the case, ways that are stupid in the fact that they aren't balanced, and would turn it into Cruisers Online. And I think once was enough for that.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,985
# 92
11-05-2012, 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Tbh, I am getting tired of people saying this over and over, and then offering silly ways for that to not be the case, ways that are stupid in the fact that they aren't balanced, and would turn it into Cruisers Online.
You want ideas that are not unbalanced?

Here's one that will likely get ignored: return the combat system to pre season 6, back when a jack of all trades Engineer captained Excelsior was competent in battle, it was balanced then it should be balanced now.

But that will most likely get ignored as it's a reasoned argument...

Alternatively to get something quoted I could always suggest a Vesta like cruiser... but I'm not because that would be stupid, overpowered and we'd have "Cruisers online"
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,009
# 93
11-05-2012, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
You want ideas that are not unbalanced?

Here's one that will likely get ignored: return the combat system to pre season 6, back when a jack of all trades Engineer captained Excelsior was competent in battle, it was balanced then it should be balanced now.

But that will most likely get ignored as it's a reasoned argument...

Alternatively to get something quoted I could always suggest a Vesta like cruiser... but I'm not because that would be stupid, overpowered and we'd have "Cruisers online"
yeah well, if it was that easy to pinpoint the exact thing that changed combat for cruisers in season 6. You claimed it was a resistance raise for NPC ships, even if it was that...maybe they put it there on purpose and for some unknown reason.
anyway, i still feel to be a "jack of all trades" when in my oddy starcruiser...i do good dmg, have support heals (tss, he, Aux2sif, ExS) and a TBR for CC and actually additional dmg against stationary targets.
and as an engi captain tanking comes naturally + the bonus power levels make even a HE1 heal for above 1k, the aux2sif goes up to nearly 7k.
Thats nice support and dmg, though dmg is not that great, but enough for elite stfs...i can still take out all probes on one side in KASE.

the only thing that grinds my gears when i fly that ship is that damn inertia...not even the turnrate. I can't even go full impulse without flying by the target by 3-4 kilometers.
Go pro or go home
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,985
# 94
11-05-2012, 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
yeah well, if it was that easy to pinpoint the exact thing that changed combat for cruisers in season 6. You claimed it was a resistance raise for NPC ships, even if it was that...maybe they put it there on purpose and for some unknown reason.
Actually I suggested that might be the case, I don't claim to know what they did, how the did it or even why they did it (I have my suspicions but I won't go into that, I did an entire thread of 1 post detailing that one) what I do know is that it's effect on my combat capability was such that I was forced to completely rebuild my ship to get anything out of it.

I think that inertia is a little over exaggerated in cruisers if anything they would probably have inertial dampeners that are just as effective as the escort ones are, I mean look at the Enterprise, you don't see them sliding to a halt from warp speed or from full impulse, when Picard (or Riker) gives the order to stop it stops within a few seconds of the conn officer pressing the appropriate buttons, look at how fast the Lakota stopped... and turned for that matter.

Basically to summarise that paragraph cruisers are nimble ships and are just as capable of stopping as any other ship in starfleet which should be reflected in game, goodness knows the motive behind the inertia rating on cruisers...
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 95
11-05-2012, 09:49 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
I think that inertia is a little over exaggerated in cruisers if anything they would probably have inertial dampeners that are just as effective as the escort ones are, I mean look at the Enterprise, you don't see them sliding to a halt from warp speed or from full impulse, when Picard (or Riker) gives the order to stop it stops within a few seconds of the conn officer pressing the appropriate buttons, look at how fast the Lakota stopped... and turned for that matter.
I can't argue with this. No where do we see the Enterprise enter a scene and slide to a stop.
Then again I haven't been against the +1-2 point turnrate buff and inertia revamp for Cruiser and battle Cruisers.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 96
11-05-2012, 10:18 AM
[quote=bitemepwe;6415401]
Quote:

I can't argue with this. No where do we see the Enterprise enter a scene and slide to a stop.
Then again I haven't been against the +1-2 point turnrate buff and inertia revamp for Cruiser and battle Cruisers.
Dont forget the Nebula science/cruiser hybrid
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 97
11-05-2012, 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
I wouldn't even bother addressing this, but it is full of so much mis-information that I don't want anyone to be misled.

For the pvp stuff... whatever... you and I have very different perceptions of reality, and I'm not interested in engaging with you in a war over what you remember versus what I remember. I will simply say that I remember both matches very differently than you do, and leave it at that.

Here's some stuff, though, that you are being either misleading or objectively wrong about.

1) Escorts can't 'crush shields' while TT and RSP are up - that combo against a cannon spamming escort will result in a near instant full shield heal, and your shields will remain up for the duration, unless you suffer a phaser proc which offlines your shields. That can happen regardless of what kind of ship is shooting you (and, in fact, is MORE likely to happen from a cruiser, since they can mount more energy weapons). So, you know, stop being hyperbolic.

2) Subnuke doesn't mean 'no tanking, no recovery'. Use Sci team, it eliminates the cooldown penalty, and then you are free to resume tanking. The loss of current buffs sucks, but if you are running a reasonable cruiser build, you should have enough backup heals/resists to recover, at least until you can get some team support. Also, this issue is NOT specific to cruisers - subnuke sucks for ANYONE who is tanking.

3) Impulse modifiers have nothing to do with resisting tractor beam repulsors. Repulsors are resisted by powers that resist movement debuffs, as well as the inertial dampeners skill from the sci tree. Also, repulsor strength is dependant both on your graviton generators skill, and current aux powers, and only pushes targets that are (I think) 5km or closer. It is an area control skill, but not intended to 'blast' escorts away from you as an escape plan.


4) Borg set doesn't diminish your weapons power at all, I'm not sure where you are getting that - in fact, the borg assimilated console is currently the best +weapon power item in the game, by a wide margin. If anything, this is the reason why it is getting nerfed - it is a solid buff to both offense and defense, and can be further paired with any shield you like without losing anything but the tractor power.

5) Basic cruisers come with +5 power for all subsystems, including weapons. Add in the borg console mentioned above and you are at +10. Now add energy bonuses from skills, and you are pushing 120 weapons power with an 'offense' power setting. Now use two of your 2-3 Eng ensign slots for Epwer Weapons. Et Viola. You have over 125 weapons power, with basically 100% uptime. It is actually easier to maintain high weapons power on a cruiser than on an escort, because the +10 weapons power the escort gets is more than offset by being able to cycle Epwer weapons on a cruiser with a lower opportunity cost.


Again, this is basically all manifestly false, as I already posted in response to an earlier question about how I go about getting end game gear. With STF runs, I have never had a problem getting purple loot, and what I can't use I sell on the exchange to buy what I can use. I'm geared up, and I never do Fleet Actions for loot. You are flat wrong on this score. Here's the math:

Space fleet action takes 8-20 ppl, rewards 1 purple item for 10-15 minutes play time (typically)

Space elite STFs takes 5 people, can reward Multiple purple items (most I've seen is 4 in one run, usually see at least one), roughly 10-15 minutes play time.

Right now, STFs are the gear producers for the economy, not fleet actions - and STF rewards are random, not kill based, so, yeah.



I have no problem making torpedoes more interesting, but 'better' is a bit iffy since I think they are already pretty good. Still, I could maybe be convinced to make them stronger across the board.

Oh, that's right, I'm sorry, you meant 'better for cruisers and worse for escorts' because everything with you is in that context. Yeah, that I will always disagree with.
1)You forgot that shields get bleed through damage from energy weapons, so even while RSP and Tac team is up, there 10% damage bleeding through shields. 10% bleed through of a 400k critical attack is 40k per second, 4k per hit for 10 seconds which DHC's can delivered alot faster and more frequent than beams. Beams can only deliver critical attack through BO which sometime miss and the damage is not continuous. RCV or RCF will deliver continuous damge until cycle is finished. Even if some of the cannon bolts miss, there are a hundred more bolts that will hit you.

2)When someone subnuke you they will not just leave you alone, you will be under constant attack. Subnuke undoes the heals, active and passive buffs. Science team only undo the Subnuke Timer. It does not restore your discontinued buffs or heals. When the timer is undone by Science team, your heals and buffs will still be in cooldown mode so you can not "Tank" while your heals and buffs are in cooldown. Eventhough the cooldown is shorter than it is with the timer running, you still can't activate the heal or buff thats in cooldown. You can't "recover" until your cooldowns are complete. Only an idiot will subnuke a person before the heals and buffs are activated. Most of the time a smart person will use subnuke after RSP, Tac Team are avtive, or when the Borg Kits starts healing. The statement still stands: "TANKING" STOPS WHEN HIT WITH SUBNUKE.

3)Nobody said it was for an escape. I have argued this in another thread, I have my inertia dampeners up in my skill tree and I still get pushed all over the place. I do know what i have to do to make my tractor repulsors powerful. I am loaded with aux batteries and have EPA as one of my BOFF powers. That doesn't explain why I'm having a hard time pushing player escorts around while I can push away player cruisers away like nothing. They don't have polarized hull activated either. In the other thread we other players came to the conclusions that the only possibility was that escorts have impulse modifiers, something cruisers lack. If there is another reason, it has to be presented. We won't truly know unless the Devs actually come in and explain the truth in their own writing. That would be in yellow font.

4)How are you going to tell me what my ships do and don't do, when you don't even fly a Galaxy? I fly my Galaxy Dreadnought and Galaxy R 90% of the time. I have a Borg kits for both ships but the weapon power doesn't stay above 121 without using EPW every 20 seconds. EPW share the same cooldown as EPS, EPA, and EPE. I rather be ready to use EPS than be caught with my guard down because of EPW cooldown. I dropped the Borg engine for a Jem'hadar Engine because it boost +5 to weapons and gives bonuses when weapon power is below 75. With that, my ships are running 125 weapon power 100% of the time without a buff. I also dropped the Borg Deflector in favor of the MK XII Positron Deflector because it boost my HP so when my shields are down, I have a little more time to heal or escape before I am destroyed. I know the Borg kit is getting nerfed next seaon, that why I don't want to rely on it. It will be a big eye opener for those who rely on it as a crutch.

5)All cruisers do not come with the same modifiers and stats. You can see this when you go to ship requisition. Each of the ship class base stats that are preseted.

And what do you fly? STF's loot gear is randomly given out and its based on luck when you get it. There is not first place in STF. There you go again, misquoting me. I didn't say anything about getting gear from STF's. Just because you are geared up the way you like, don't mean everyone else is. If you are playing multiple characters on a single account, all of them will not be geared the same and it will take time to get every character up to stats you want.

In Fleet Action-- the purple gear is only given out at the end of the game to whoever has first place. Second place get blue, and 3rd place get green. The placement is based on the amount of kills per game. The regular drops are random in quality and come to me only if I helped in major part of dealing damage to a certain enemy. The same goes for Fleet Starbase missions. If you sit out an intire game and don't contribute to dealing damage you will get nothing. I tried this before. "So, yeah", back at you!


Yeah, torpedos are pretty good coming from escorts, since they have all the extra tac BOFF slots and tac console slots to make a torpedo devastating. A cruiser can't make topedos do crap and they really need them since they can't arm cannons.

Last edited by alexindcobra; 11-05-2012 at 11:51 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,764
# 98
11-05-2012, 12:13 PM
Quote:
1)You forgot that shields get bleed through damage from energy weapons, so even while RSP and Tac team is up, there 10% damage bleeding through shields. 10% bleed through of a 400k critical attack is 40k per second, 4k per hit for 10 seconds which DHC's can delivered alot faster and more frequent than beams. Beams can only deliver critical attack through BO which sometime miss and the damage is not continuous. RCV or RCF will deliver continuous damge until cycle is finished. Even if some of the cannon bolts miss, there are a hundred more bolts that will hit you.
400,000 damage point alpha attacks? Who the heck can do 400k in a single alpha.
Secondly you forgot about resists from those shields and other abilities.
Its not hard to lower incomming damage to zero if you have the timing down and know how to stack resists.

Quote:
4) EPW share the same cooldown as EPS, EPA, and EPE.
Not when you cycle two different EPTx abilities. The one activated goes on normal CD while the other will go to a Global cooldown that is significantly lower.
This allows you two cycle the two abilities almost 100% uptime.
Richard Hamilton (1975-2014)
goodbye good friend. We will see you in the DMZ in the sky oneday, save a shot for us.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 405
# 99
11-05-2012, 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
1)You forgot that shields get bleed through damage from energy weapons, so even while RSP and Tac team is up, there 10% damage bleeding through shields. 10% bleed through of a 400k critical attack is 40k per second, 4k per hit for 10 seconds which DHC's can delivered alot faster and more frequent than beams. Beams can only deliver critical attack through BO which sometime miss and the damage is not continuous. RCV or RCF will deliver continuous damge until cycle is finished. Even if some of the cannon bolts miss, there are a hundred more bolts that will hit you.
Bleed through is HULL damage, and not shield damage, and is negligible if you have a) shield resists to lower incoming dmg b) hull resists to lower dmg further. The point remains, you are totally hyperbolic about the damage that escorts can do - you invent a crazy random number from your gut instinct reaction to being beaten, then you base further conjecture off those 'facts'. 400k dmg, for example, is the amount of hull dmg a middle of the road escort might do in an entire pvp match, not in 10 seconds against someone with proper resists, etc.

Put another way, in response to your claims about escort damage, I could simply say "yeah, but cruisers can heal infinity PLUS ONE damage, so there!"


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
2)When someone subnuke you they will not just leave you alone, you will be under constant attack. Subnuke undoes the heals, active and passive buffs. Science team only undo the Subnuke Timer. It does not restore your discontinued buffs or heals. When the timer is undone by Science team, your heals and buffs will still be in cooldown mode so you can not "Tank" while your heals and buffs are in cooldown. Eventhough the cooldown is shorter than it is with the timer running, you still can't activate the heal or buff thats in cooldown. You can't "recover" until your cooldowns are complete. Only an idiot will subnuke a person before the heals and buffs are activated. Most of the time a smart person will use subnuke after RSP, Tac Team are avtive, or when the Borg Kits starts healing. The statement still stands: "TANKING" STOPS WHEN HIT WITH SUBNUKE.
I was going to refute everything you said here, because it is all nonsense, but ultimately it doesn't matter - even if SubNuke WERE an automatic tank-ending power, that would effect all ships equally (I.E. not a cruiser specific problem) AND is a Captain power available on any ship in the game (I.E. not a reason why escorts are op). Thus, irrelevant for this discussion. By all means, start a new thread about how SubNuke ends all tanking, and see how it goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
3)Nobody said it was for an escape. I have argued this in another thread, I have my inertia dampeners up in my skill tree and I still get pushed all over the place. I do know what i have to do to make my tractor repulsors powerful. I am loaded with aux batteries and have EPA as one of my BOFF powers. That doesn't explain why I'm having a hard time pushing player escorts around while I can push away player cruisers away like nothing. They don't have polarized hull activated either. In the other thread we other players came to the conclusions that the only possibility was that escorts have impulse modifiers, something cruisers lack. If there is another reason, it has to be presented. We won't truly know unless the Devs actually come in and explain the truth in their own writing. That would be in yellow font.
If you didn't mean to use repulsors as an escape, then why did you talk about it in the context of 'cruisers can't escape from escorts'? Whatever. As for the argument you are trying to make now, there are almost unlimited explanations for what you saw, ranging from your spec for repulsors not being great, people running counters like Aux to ID or AP: O, or simply that while you 'feel' like you aren't pushing escorts very far, you actually are. Simply put, this is something you THINK you see, but isn't really happening. Also, all ships have 'impulse modifiers', it's just that escorts' are higher, because escorts are faster. It affects speed and nothing else, as far as I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
4)How are you going to tell me what my ships do and don't do, when you don't even fly a Galaxy? I fly my Galaxy Dreadnought and Galaxy R 90% of the time. I have a Borg kits for both ships but the weapon power doesn't stay above 121 without using EPW every 20 seconds. EPW share the same cooldown as EPS, EPA, and EPE. I rather be ready to use EPS than be caught with my guard down because of EPW cooldown. I dropped the Borg engine for a Jem'hadar Engine because it boost +5 to weapons and gives bonuses when weapon power is below 75. With that, my ships are running 125 weapon power 100% of the time without a buff. I also dropped the Borg Deflector in favor of the MK XII Positron Deflector because it boost my HP so when my shields are down, I have a little more time to heal or escape before I am destroyed. I know the Borg kit is getting nerfed next seaon, that why I don't want to rely on it. It will be a big eye opener for those who rely on it as a crutch.

5)All cruisers do not come with the same modifiers and stats. You can see this when you go to ship requisition. Each of the ship class base stats that are preseted.
I have no idea what the last line is all about - of course different ships have different stats? This is why before I talk about ships I don't use often I double check them? What did I get wrong? I was talking specifically about power levels, not turn rate or anything else, and said 'basic cruisers' by which I meant 'normal' cruisers like the Galaxy, Sovereign, and Star Cruiser. Some cruisers have different power levels, that is true, but usually it is in favor of more weapons power, which just makes your original argument that cruisers don't have enough weapons power worse, so...

Also, thank you for doing the exact math on the Galaxy that I was talking about. 121 energy plus 100% uptime on EpW = 125 energy plus. Glad we worked that out. With the Galaxy, did you also take into account the bonus from saucer sep? That's another like +10 right there, isn't it? Oh, and while the thing about cooldowns and EpW/EpS has already been explained, please note that EpS is NOT a great power to use as a primary shield heal. That role is much better filled by Transfer Shield Strength or Sci team. If you are waiting until your shields are low to pop EpS, then you are missing the most important part of the power, which is the long duration buff to your shield resistance that keeps your shields from dropping in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
And what do you fly? STF's loot gear is randomly given out and its based on luck when you get it. There is not first place in STF. There you go again, misquoting me. I didn't say anything about getting gear from STF's. Just because you are geared up the way you like, don't mean everyone else is. If you are playing multiple characters on a single account, all of them will not be geared the same and it will take time to get every character up to stats you want.

In Fleet Action-- the purple gear is only given out at the end of the game to whoever has first place. Second place get blue, and 3rd place get green. The placement is based on the amount of kills per game. The regular drops are random in quality and come to me only if I helped in major part of dealing damage to a certain enemy. The same goes for Fleet Starbase missions. If you sit out an intire game and don't contribute to dealing damage you will get nothing. I tried this before. "So, yeah", back at you!


Yeah, torpedos are pretty good coming from escorts, since they have all the extra tac BOFF slots and tac console slots to make a torpedo devastating. A cruiser can't make topedos do crap and they really need them since they can't arm cannons.
First, what do you imagine escorts are doing to make torpedoes so much better than cruisers? You keep acting like all escorts have 5 tac consoles buffing their 4 Dual heavy cannons/three turrets, and 5 more tac consoles buffing their two prow quantum torpedoes, while simultaneously running two copies of Omega III, CRFIII, and HYTIII. No escort can do all the things you think they can, all at once.

For torps, I have zero consoles buffing my torps, and use only HYT I, which any cruiser can use. Since you are a tac captain as well, those buffs are a wash. My torps on my escort are EXACTLY as powerful as yours are/could be, and they work FINE. Now comes the part where you say that cruisers don't turn well enough to use torpedoes, and inexplicably that becomes a reason why the weapon type needs to be made more powerful, instead of you simply learning to maneuver better in a cruiser, or calling for a cruiser maneuver buff.

As for the rewards thing, your argument about fleet actions at this point is ludicrous. Here's your exact argument, in reverse: "Escorts need a healing power buff, because the best way to get fleet marks in space is to run Blockade, but cruisers have an unfair advantage over escorts since they heal better. It really shows the imbalance of the game when only one class of ship gets all the advantages. Any team of all cruisers will always get more marks than an all escort team, which means only cruiser captains will ever get fleet items." How will you respond to that, without using any of the arguments I've used against you?

I have pointed out multiple times that there are other ways to get gear (including the STFs, which are random rewards, and thus not biased towards escorts), and other rewards to playing the game entirely, but you are myopically focused on this one thing. Yes, escorts do better in some fleet actions, because escorts are designed to do more damage. This is okay, because cruisers do better at other parts of the game, that you seem to simply not care about. For the final time, if the only thing in this game that matters to you is doing damage in fleet actions, then two things are true:

1) that is a personal problem YOU have, and should not determine anything about the game at large.

2) you should use the tool designed to do the job, instead of crying about how your screwdriver isn't as good at cutting wood as my saw.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,009
# 100
11-05-2012, 04:51 PM
40k bleedthrough dmg...hilarious, stopped reading there. come on, this discussion with alexindcobra is leading nowhere, as usual.
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