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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,370
# 21
11-05-2012, 07:41 PM
I don't know if someone's suggested this before, but how about making it an active Boff ability instead? Something like this:

Draw Fire (Space)
Redirects a percentage of the damage the target is taking to your own ship.

Level I: 20%, 5 second uptime
Level II:30%, 10 second uptime
Level III: 40%, 15 second uptime

If you make it an engineering ability and tweak percentages and uptime, it would be an interesting doing something like 'Extend Shields' at a certain cost to yourself (the damage you take).

Or, make it an AoE field where a certain percentage of all weapons fire coming from enemy ships within the field OR hitting friendlies within the shield is redirected to you instead. I can't remember, but I think I saw this ability in one of the Armada games or something.

Just my two cents, assuming that more tanking is needed in PvP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 197
# 22
11-05-2012, 11:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
The real problem as I see it is that Cruisers are not high-priority targets in Escort-dominated PvP... They're too slow and their ability to protect other ships is very limited.

If Cruisers could more effectively protect other ships within their sphere of influence, then their threat level would go up, they would become more high-priority targets, and the ability to resist damage would be more critical.

THAT's what Cruisers should be designed and balanced around.

The only Engineering ability I can think of that can protect multiple ships is Extend Shields and it's not Cruiser-specific.

I think Cruisers need a specific, innate ability to extend some kind of protection to other ships. Something to clarify and improve their intended role in the game other than being damage sponges.
huh???

I see you've bought into the escorts are OP argument when no serious top level pvp teams field more than two due to the liability to the teams welfare. How much more effectively would you like cruisers to be able to protect ships? THAT'S exactly what cruisers are designed and balanced around...

Perhaps you mean engineers?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 152
# 23
11-06-2012, 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
Placates are bad enough and about to get worse. A tanking ability is not something I'd like to see in PvP. Plus, how would it work with the placate? I activate my tank ability so you can't attack anybody but me, then the S7 reputation bonus placate on crit activates so you can't attack me either. It's a bit complicated and I'm not convinced it's what Engi's need.

Make MW and RSF usable on allies, give it 6 months to settle, then see if Engi's still need a tweak.
It wouldn't work like that. The chance of fire absorption actually occurring, balance wise, would be low enough that you'd still, ~95-85% of the time be firing on your intended target. The essential idea is to give tanks an AOE DPS reduction while at the same time making the fact that they're tanks actually have purpose in PVP beyond just being damage sponges that don't become actual targets until the Tac's and Sci's are already dead. Plus the effect would also have a limited range, say, 5-7 KM (exactly, mind you. Under 5km and you're too close for it to work quickly enough, over 7km and you're too far away) from the tank for fire absorption to occur.

With fire absorption, tanks now don't have to work so hard to be more like Tac's to be worthwhile in PVP (In my experience, only tanks that are just a short way from being outright Tac DPS ships/players, only ever really matter in a PVP match. All others just get ignored until everyone else is dead) and can focus more on their intended healing purposes.

Teamwork becomes more important as now each career becomes an equal oppurtunity target, and as such teams have to decide which ships to focus fire on. Does your team hammer through the fire absorption and take out the Tac's and Sci's or does it break the tank outright and deal with the rest after? Does your team split up and and attack the Tac's and Sci's from the rear while the tank and one or two others takes the brunt of the assault? Do you Grav well them to oblivion and back and AOE them to death, taking advantage of the absorb's limited range? Divide and conquer or nuke the lot? Etc etc.

And as for placate, personally I'd rather see that get nerfed significantly (it should be an extremely rare occurrence) or have an actual defense against critical damage occurence introduced. For instance, say Kinetic resistence now also increases (at a far less rate than the normal Kinetic resist) resistance to Critical chance. Call it reinforced structural integrity or something.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,274
# 24
11-07-2012, 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by upyournacelles2 View Post
huh???

I see you've bought into the escorts are OP argument when no serious top level pvp teams field more than two due to the liability to the teams welfare. How much more effectively would you like cruisers to be able to protect ships? THAT'S exactly what cruisers are designed and balanced around...

Perhaps you mean engineers?
I never said escorts are OP... One-on-one, a cruiser can effectively stand up to anything an escort can dish out.

I'm saying that cruisers can't effectively protect any ship besides themselves in PvP, so they're not good at the traditional "tanking" role. They can't soak damage on behalf of another ship and they're not a big enough threat to distract escorts from making their attack runs and focusing fire.

Whereas escorts have an innate advantage in damage even without BOFF abilities, cruisers do NOT have any innate advantages in protecting other ships... their ability to protect their allies is completely dependent on BOFF abilities -- many of which can not affect more than one ally at a time and are then subject to cooldown. And those are at least partly offset by the BOFF abilities of the escort class to boost damage output.

The only advantage a cruiser might be said to have is the ability to soak up a little more damage while they're buffing up their teammates. But using their BOFF's to heal up teammates means those defensive powers might not be available to keep themselves from going kaboom. It really only makes a big difference when cruisers are reinforcing other cruisers. Otherwise, one cruiser can only really defend one ship at a time. You'd basically need at least one cruiser for each of any other kind of ship... not necessarily a bad thing except that you have to sacrifice manuverability and DPS to do it.

I wish Roach's suggestion about blocking LOS could be effectively incorporated into the game. It might solve some of the issues. It could be sort of a "poor man's" Extend Shields in a way that's not too overpowered and let cruisers play to their real strength at soaking up damage and get out in front of the weaker ships.

I do agree that "taunt" is a bad mechanic for STO PvP combat and there are enough of those kinds of CC abilities that we don't need one more flavor.
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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,744
# 25
11-07-2012, 02:58 PM
2 or 3 heal boats supporting each other and the rest of the team can throw so many heals that no amount of escort damage can break through the volume of it. in a proper premade healing is so much stronger then damage that you can only get a kill by haveing a science befuddle a healer, or by stacking so many sci debuffs on a target that the escorts can finally deal more damage then the healers can heal. thats the 3 ship type system working.

in pugs, lone cruiser can more or less protect himself fine with a good build, but cant do much more then that. theres not enough team work and cross healing so lone cruisers often fall prey to escorts easily, leading to complaint threads about how much they suck.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 26
11-07-2012, 04:07 PM
If anything I'd argue that cruisers were doing their job quite admirably, it's just that they've been outclassed in recent times (most particularly by that loathsome spider spambox). A team of Eng Odys when you have no nukes is a nightmare to deal with.

It's really Cryptic's own fault for taking too much of the cruiser's role away and giving it to silly ships like the Recluse. Yes, that's been the trend for all of the lockbox ships really, but the cruiser's the only one who got the shaft by not getting a cruiser lockbox ship so much as a science one that happened to do the snoozer's job better.

I actually really like Roach's LoS idea though, trouble is that I don't know if it'd be feasible. STO moves pretty fast.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Commander
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 318
# 27
11-07-2012, 04:28 PM
How about making extend shields also increase the casters shields by a diameter in size and make them physical to enemy fire. Good 3dimentional size and whoever wants on your team can get in there or behind and hide for a little bit of time.

The fact you cant run ES and RSP at eh same time now should keep that from being to powerful.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 197
# 28
11-07-2012, 09:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
I never said escorts are OP... One-on-one, a cruiser can effectively stand up to anything an escort can dish out.

I'm saying that cruisers can't effectively protect any ship besides themselves in PvP, so they're not good at the traditional "tanking" role. They can't soak damage on behalf of another ship and they're not a big enough threat to distract escorts from making their attack runs and focusing fire.

They can't take damage in place of another ship (tank), but to say they can't effectively protect another ship is not true. As far as being a threat, most premades I've run with quickly make cruisers their primary target if the cruisers are protecting their escorts too well. Cruiser BEST role in the game is healing.

Whereas escorts have an innate advantage in damage even without BOFF abilities, cruisers do NOT have any innate advantages in protecting other ships... their ability to protect their allies is completely dependent on BOFF abilities -- many of which can not affect more than one ally at a time and are then subject to cooldown. And those are at least partly offset by the BOFF abilities of the escort class to boost damage output.

Exactly what innate abilities does an escort have? A little extra weapon power?

The only advantage a cruiser might be said to have is the ability to soak up a little more damage while they're buffing up their teammates. But using their BOFF's to heal up teammates means those defensive powers might not be available to keep themselves from going kaboom. It really only makes a big difference when cruisers are reinforcing other cruisers WHAT???. Otherwise, one cruiser can only really defend one ship at a time. You'd basically need at least one cruiser for each of any other kind of ship... not necessarily a bad thing except that you have to sacrifice manuverability and DPS to do it.

Are you trolling me? Your not seriously saying the only thing a cruisers support is really good for is supporting another cruiser are you? So a cruiser that keeps his escort(s) alive is doinitwrong? They should only be healing another cruiser who can heal them back?

I wish Roach's suggestion about blocking LOS could be effectively incorporated into the game. It might solve some of the issues. It could be sort of a "poor man's" Extend Shields in a way that's not too overpowered and let cruisers play to their real strength at soaking up damage and get out in front of the weaker ships.

This does sound interesting, but also seems very tough to pull off. If thats the case, ALL objects should be hit in a line of fire circumstance. This would add a much different aspect to spam. Spam would effectively cut down an opponents focused DPS, but it would at the same time also help to deal with spam

I do agree that "taunt" is a bad mechanic for STO PvP combat and there are enough of those kinds of CC abilities that we don't need one more flavor.

What CC ability do we have that is like a taunt? Are we playing the same game?
You didn't exactly say escorts are OP, but you did say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
The real problem as I see it is that Cruisers are not high-priority targets in Escort-dominated PvP... They're too slow and their ability to protect other ships is very limited
I guess I'm not sure what you meant by "escort dominated" and cruisers being low priority targets, slow and limited in their ability to protect.

Last edited by upyournacelles2; 11-07-2012 at 09:40 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 197
# 29
11-07-2012, 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
2 Or 3 Heal Boats Supporting Each Other And The Rest Of The Team Can Throw So Many Heals That No Amount Of Escort Damage Can Break Through The Volume Of It. In A Proper Premade Healing Is So Much Stronger Then Damage That You Can Only Get A Kill By Haveing A Science Befuddle A Healer, Or By Stacking So Many Sci Debuffs On A Target That The Escorts Can Finally Deal More Damage Then The Healers Can Heal. Thats The 3 Ship Type System Working.

In Pugs, Lone Cruiser Can More Or Less Protect Himself Fine With A Good Build, But Cant Do Much More Then That. Theres Not Enough Team Work And Cross Healing So Lone Cruisers Often Fall Prey To Escorts Easily, Leading To Complaint Threads About How Much They Suck.
QFT, except I'd add that kills can be accomplished by proc's as well
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 157
# 30
11-08-2012, 01:13 AM
I would just like to add that I think tanking can work really well for cruisers in pvp if you are spec. out for team healing.

Everyone knows that a good heal boat is very hard to kill. This frees up heals so you don?t have to use them on yourself. Then you can focus on healing the person being attacked and make a weak target much much stronger.

If the heal boat does fail to protect the other ships then they will still have heals for themselves when the damage gets put back onto them. Hopefully you can live long enough for the other team to use their buffs trying to kill you. That way they have no buffs and your team is back fully buffed.

What is hard about doing it this way is you have to be fully committed to healing. You have to start every match thinking that you will have the lowest damage but the highest heals. Not just your team both teams and you should try to even beat or match your healing with the highest damage of the other team.

Think of tanking not as how much damage you can take but how much you can counter.
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