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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,703
# 31
11-08-2012, 01:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
2 or 3 heal boats supporting each other and the rest of the team can throw so many heals that no amount of escort damage can break through the volume of it. in a proper premade healing is so much stronger then damage that you can only get a kill by haveing a science befuddle a healer, or by stacking so many sci debuffs on a target that the escorts can finally deal more damage then the healers can heal. thats the 3 ship type system working.

in pugs, lone cruiser can more or less protect himself fine with a good build, but cant do much more then that. theres not enough team work and cross healing so lone cruisers often fall prey to escorts easily, leading to complaint threads about how much they suck.
true, yet three healboats going through the motions of repeated alphas will survive. However, they won't score a kill either. So the best an eng heavy team can hope for is a stalemate.

I was thinking the other day about reviving the crew mechanic, to make sure 45min matches can result in 15 kills. I'm not yet sure how to apply the numbers, but basically on top of what we currently have affecting crew, it should become mechanic that simply tics over time, after e.g. 45 min cruisers pressure dmg, combined with their large crew, would get a significant boost, over escort burst damage, which would suffer the most from the crew based penalty.

If your burst ain't strong enough, you should die. Currently, you only die to procs (on both sides) or to your healing cycle getting screwed (aka falling asleep at the keyboard), we need a "penalty" for burst ships, not doing their job good enough that results in a kill.
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 32
11-08-2012, 01:42 AM
A little extreme perhaps. But what about a SNB-like mechanics for ships ? The less crew you have the slower your abilities recharge.

Maybe even torps that dmg your crew wouldn't be that useless in PvP.

But some abilities would need rework like theta...
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 61
# 33
11-08-2012, 07:05 AM
I've always been of the opinion that the best way to have a tank matter is to re-work the Extend Shields ability to transfer some of the damage dealt to the transferee back to the transferer. So in other words if I transfer my shields to an escort and he takes shield damage, let's say that damage is split 50/50 between us. Thus, removing the tank becomes important now, because otherwise the escort's shields won't ever go down.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 355
# 34
11-08-2012, 07:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ertihan View Post
I've always been of the opinion that the best way to have a tank matter is to re-work the Extend Shields ability to transfer some of the damage dealt to the transferee back to the transferer. So in other words if I transfer my shields to an escort and he takes shield damage, let's say that damage is split 50/50 between us. Thus, removing the tank becomes important now, because otherwise the escort's shields won't ever go down.
Well I would be in favor or something like that but I would not use 50/50.
I would rather say something like that: lets say i have extend shields which gives 25% resi. Now why not say it absorbs 5% of dmg and 20% of the dmg go to the one using extend. So the protected ship still has the same resi as it would have now and the one using extend gets a little dmg. That should not be too much because you can't afford to really heal two targets at the same time but it will at least force him to use some self heals and maybe soften him a bit for a target switch. It would also make extend on an engi captain more interesting because he has more self heals.
The actual numbers would need testing but I would keep the dmg reduction on the protected ship as it is now and simply balance the amount transfered to the protector so it gets a little bit more interesting.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 61
# 35
11-08-2012, 07:50 AM
I think that would weaken the skill to the point of unuseability, to be honest.

I also want to keep the role play idea in mind here. I mean, in Star Trek lore, what does it mean to "Extend Shields"? I'm extending my shields to your ship, presumably because your shields are weakened or just plain weaker.

If you think about it, what it comes down to is mi casa es tu casa, my shields are your shields. What happens to one shield should happen to the other. This should include the bad (if your shields take damage mine should take equal damage) and good (if I use emergency power to shields, YOU should also get an equal shield heal and shield resist).

Thus, if an engineer extends his shields to an escort, that escort should get all the benefits of an engineer's shields, including Rotate Shield Frequency, Emergency Power to Shields, even the shield heal from Miracle Worker, for the duration of the extend.

On the flip side, if EITHER the escort OR the engineer take damage, the other guy takes equal damage, because again, they're sharing the same shield.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,300
# 36
11-09-2012, 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by upyournacelles2 View Post
They can't take damage in place of another ship (tank), but to say they can't effectively protect another ship is not true. As far as being a threat, most premades I've run with quickly make cruisers their primary target if the cruisers are protecting their escorts too well. Cruiser BEST role in the game is healing.

Your not seriously saying the only thing a cruisers support is really good for is supporting another cruiser are you? So a cruiser that keeps his escort(s) alive is doinitwrong? They should only be healing another cruiser who can heal them back?

I guess I'm not sure what you meant by "escort dominated" and cruisers being low priority targets, slow and limited in their ability to protect.
Ok, going to take a shot at clarifying my meaning.

Can anyone honestly say that, all other things being equal, their priority targets won't be in something like the following order of precedence?

Escort
Science Vessel
Cruiser

You might swap SV's and Escorts, depending on your preference, but isn't this pretty close to the truth?

I'm not saying people are too stupid to adjust their tactics and focus on the cruisers if they are proving to be a bigger threat. I'm saying that people are naturally going to focus on softer targets that present a bigger threat and gang up on the cruisers when they don't have support. That really ought to be the other way around, in my opinion... people should have to pound on or outmanuver the cruisers in order to get at the softer targets more effectively and the game should balance around that.

And I am saying that sticking cruisers into a default healboat role makes them less dangerous in general, unless the cruiser captain really knows what he's doing. They don't have the speed and turnrate to keep up with the ships they're supposed to be covering and aside from having better Engineering BOFF stations the ships themselves don't have any particular advantage at playing the healboat role.

Escorts, on the other hand, are fast and manuverable. They're harder to hit and they're better at keeping their weapons in firing arc. They do get bonus weapon power and they can mount DHC's. On top of that, they have as many Tactical BOFF stations as the cruisers have Engineering BOFF stations and all of the Tactical BOFF abilities buff the very things that make escorts well suited at their role.

Engineering BOFF abilities are best at making cruisers better tanks, not better healers. Only three of them can be used on other ships (ET, A2S, ES), which means the healers have to supplement with Sci BOFF powers (HE, TSS) to be more effective at healing and damage mitigation for other ships. The good part about that is that all of those abilities also help tank.

In this game, where you can't tank to mitigate damage to another ship, being a tank isn't as much help as it should be in a team support role. In other words, it's not good enough to be a good tank... you have to be a good healer, too. But, as I said before, cruisers are entirely reliant on BOFF powers in order to be healers. They have no innate ability or advantage to do that. Tanking just lets them survive longer while they're healing.

So, to sum it up, cruisers are less effective at the role they're "designed" for than escorts are at theirs.

What I would like to see is some way to make cruisers better designed for a protective role in which tanking plays some part. How to do that without completely overhauling game balance, I have no idea.
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