Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 251
11-08-2012, 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ertihan View Post
You know, there's an old saying about a guy who gets pulled over by a cop for speeding.

He says, "but there were 5 other guys before me that were speeding too!"

The cop replies, "yeah, maybe, but you were the one who got caught."
That analogy is only relevant if it ends with the cop leading the guy to the side of the road and gives him a "perma-ban"

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Exactly. I agree with that. But not everyone lives on North American continent, did it occur to you ?? And there lies my problem. Nowhere in the forum rules is written that forum posts are moderated according to the American laws and way of life. What is legal in one country is not legal in another.

An American can troll me and flame me with his advanced vocabulary without breaking the rules, stupid european like me, has to use...well not so subtle vocabulary. It's called language barrier. In case of forums it's frequently case of cultural and language barriers.

When something questionable happens "like drug reference" in "why do you do something so stupid" context, it should yield you warning max, not insta ban from forums.
This is true. I know a guy from Norway who got a few warnings and had his posts edited, and had to consult native english-speaking friends to have them explain where he misstepped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antoniosalieri View Post
^

Exactly... how does something that we could argue convincingly is a harmless pop culture reference = lifetime ban again ? Its illogical.

At some point you have to ask what is the intent of the law? Is the no drug reference provision of the forum policy honestly there to protect us from a line that you can hear 10-20 times a night on prime time television? There is nothing anyone that is reading this forum would find offensive about the line.
Yes, the forum rule states that you can not "discuss illegal drugs". Not using literary pictures containing drug references. Also, is "get high" a referrence to illegal drugs? You may get just as high from legal drugs. You may get high with no drugs at all, even!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hippiejon View Post
Agreed, if it was a first infraction.
Perma banning someone for a first infraction in almost any circumstance (Almost any) is pretty silly, and a bit over the top.

I think we are actually in agreement there.

However, if there have been multiple warnings and infractions, the a perma ban is totally called for.
depends... a person who has got multiple warnings for speeding is caught parking in a place not allowed, and the policeman says "you've had so many warnings, this time I take your license!"?

As for the perma-ban, what does it accomplish? The same person will just come back on a new account. The old account had value to him. It had a reputation in the community, and a fancy title. He was stepping carefully to not loose it. Still, he did....

The new account he couldn't care more if was closed. If it's closed he can just make another just like it. He no longer has anything to loose. On top of that, he may feel wrongly punished, and have gained resentment towards the mods, or have lost respect for the forum rules....

I say again, what was gained by the perma-ban? A suspension would have him come back more careful. A perma-ban made him come back as a vengeful ghost.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,157
# 252
11-08-2012, 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
As for the perma-ban, what does it accomplish? The same person will just come back on a new account. The old account had value to him. It had a reputation in the community, and a fancy title. He was stepping carefully to not loose it. Still, he did....

The new account he couldn't care more if was closed. If it's closed he can just make another just like it. He no longer has anything to loose. On top of that, he may feel wrongly punished, and have gained resentment towards the mods, or have lost respect for the forum rules....

I say again, what was gained by the perma-ban? A suspension would have him come back more careful. A perma-ban made him come back as a vengeful ghost.
Read the rules about how the infraction system works.

Most of the time when a Moderator gets involved, users only get 0-point warnings. No points, no ban.

Only when you collect a certain number of infraction points (starts at 5) does the system impose a temporary ban. Those people get a time-out and then they get to come back and try again. Note that only affects the Forums... it has nothing to do with their ability to log in and play the game.

At 20 points, that person has pretty much shown that they don't really care about the forum rules. Warnings and temporary bans haven't affected the behavior at all. So what does the operator of the forum do about it?

Very few people get 20 point infractions right off the bat, and that's only for very specific and severe kinds of offenses.

As far as creating a new account goes... sure, maybe. But don't forget about Account Guard... they are able to associate an account with a specific source. It's not a long step from that to being able to identify a banned user coming from that same computer.

As long as that user follows the rules and doesn't draw attention to themselves, they might get away with it. In which case, even the "perma-ban" had some effect.

If they do draw attention to themselves and they do get caught, they've violated the Terms of Service. PWE is within their rights to terminate their game account.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek

Last edited by bluegeek; 11-08-2012 at 02:15 PM.
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 253
11-08-2012, 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
If they do draw attention to themselves and they do get caught, they've violated the Terms of Service. PWE is within their rights to terminate their game account. Anything they ever bought on that account? Bye-bye. No legal recourse, either.
PWE terminate potential revenue because of something occurring on the forums? I'm assuming this is one of those statements that is your view and not the view of PWE. It's unlikely they would turn down someone waving money in their face over forum infractions. Respectfully, I have to call bull%$#& on that one.

Last edited by rooster75; 11-08-2012 at 12:58 PM.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,157
# 254
11-08-2012, 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster75 View Post
PWE terminate potential revenue because of something occurring on the forums? I'm assuming this is one of those statements that is your view and not the view of PWE. It's unlikely they would turn down someone waving money in their face over forum infractions. Respectfully, I have to call bull%$#& on that one.
Didn't say they would do it, just said they're within their rights to do it.

Even if they don't, it would suck to be a Lifetime Sub with no rights to post in the forums, wouldn't it?

And I think you might possibly be overstating PWE's attachment to the money of a single user. Is that user doing something on the forums that could get PWE in legal trouble? They're gone.

Yeah, otherwise they're just going to play Whack-A-Mole with the forum trolls. But the Banhammer is there to use if PWE wants it.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 255
11-08-2012, 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Very few people get 20 point infractions right off the bat, and that's only for very specific and severe kinds of offenses.
Hmm... I've heard about inconsistencies in this... the same offence giving warning to one person and instant ban to another. But i guess it's all down to neuances and each specific situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
As far as creating a new account goes... sure, maybe. But don't forget about Account Guard... they are able to associate an account with a specific source. It's not a long step from that to being able to identify a banned user coming from that same computer.
(...)
If they do draw attention to themselves and they do get caught, they've violated the Terms of Service. PWE is within their rights to terminate their game account. Anything they ever bought on that account? Bye-bye. No legal recourse, either.
This is scary information! Does this mean that if a forum-banned user create/log into a duplicate account from a computer I'm using, I could have MY game-account closed because of it?
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,157
# 256
11-08-2012, 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
This is scary information! Does this mean that if a forum-banned user create/log into a duplicate account from a computer I'm using, I could have MY game-account closed because of it?
I don't think I'd worry about it a whole lot. Is that likely to happen? You got a perma-banned roomie trying to get around a ban?

First, I doubt there are very many perma-banned users. And second, the odds that one of those has access to the same computer you are using seems mighty low to me. Third, are they dumb enough to get their new account perma-banned too?
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 257
11-08-2012, 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
And I think you might possibly be overstating PWE's attachment to the money of a single user. Is that user doing something on the forums that could get PWE in legal trouble? They're gone.

Ok, so you're just throwing this out there as a scare tactic for those of us planning to get PWE into legal trouble? It's a good thing you post the disclaimer in your handle. I'd hate to take what you're writing literally.

There are a lot of things that occur in-game that could get PWE in trouble and never get moderated that are a lot worse than anything going on in this forum. No one ever does a thing about that. Just go to DS9 or ESD and listen to zone chat sometime. PvP subforum culture by no means should be considered a problem compared to some of what gets said in zone chat. It's not likely that PWE is too overly concerned about legal trouble given this kind of history. I reported a guy telling racist jokes in DS9 the other day and then logged out. About an hour later I logged back in and there he was still in zone chat going about his business against African-Americans. In effect, I can login and say whatever I want in zone chat and not worry about a single repercussion, however, I can go to the forums and say the same exact thing and risk infractions or my account banned.

By the way, I'm really not trying to be disrespectful. I'm just pointing out the double standard of what's behind your words and why what you're saying doesn't make sense.

Last edited by rooster75; 11-08-2012 at 02:33 PM.
Community Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 4,157
# 258
11-08-2012, 02:06 PM
Ok, so let me put this banning thing in perspective.

Awhile back, before the game went F2P I think, there was a forum user who was being harrassed in-game with death threats.

I wasn't a moderator at the time, but I remember that Cryptic took it very seriously and I would bet that they terminated the other guy's account permanently. Remember, that was back when everybody was a paying subscriber. Some customers aren't worth keeping, in my opinion.

Now that's not quite the same thing as somebody blowing off steam on the forums. Whole different level. And ever since Branflakes has been in charge of the forums, PWE has been very tolerant and open about managing the forums. We all understand the need to vent -- it takes a lot to earn even one infraction, and the people that get them truly deserve them.

Even so, being banned from the forums is not the same as being banned from the game. I'm sure PWE will happily keep taking their money for as long as they'll keep giving it. But if that user is bound and determined to keep causing trouble for PWE? It's their call whether that "customer" is worth keeping or not.

I'm not trying to "scare" anybody. I'd rather not, actually. I'm pretty harmless; I can't even give out a single point of infractions let alone ban anybody. And no, I don't speak for PWE.
Volunteer Community Moderator for the Star Trek Online forums -- My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. If you wish to speak to someone on the community team, file a "forums and website" support ticket here, as we are not able to respond to PMs regarding moderation inquiries.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 269
# 259
11-08-2012, 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
Ok, so let me put this banning thing in perspective.

Awhile back, before the game went F2P I think, there was a forum user who was being harrassed in-game with death threats.

I wasn't a moderator at the time, but I remember that Cryptic took it very seriously and I would bet that they terminated the other guy's account permanently. Remember, that was back when everybody was a paying subscriber. Some customers aren't worth keeping, in my opinion.
I think I recall someone threatening to kill Wishstone a while back but their account in game lived on. Actually, he threatened to kill her through a link in his signature that lead to a homemade comic strip. They did get forum privileges revoked...for a while. Just saying.

Last edited by rooster75; 11-08-2012 at 02:42 PM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 260
11-08-2012, 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
I don't think I'd worry about it a whole lot. Is that likely to happen? You got a perma-banned roomie trying to get around a ban?
I might just have that... then again I might not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluegeek View Post
And ever since Branflakes has been in charge of the forums, PWE has been very tolerant and open about managing the forums. We all understand the need to vent -- it takes a lot to earn even one infraction, and the people that get them truly deserve them.
That has been my experience too, except in one case, where it appear they skipped the whole infraction system and went directly to perma-ban over something everyone I've talked to says should have been a warning only. :/



This just occured to me: If someone has his forum account hacked (like a password theft), and the hacker posts something worth a perma-ban on the forum. (imagine a user you've offended in game or real life, who wants to get back at you). You log in the next day, and find you're banned, with no explanation to what you did wrong, just the nature of the crime.... You file a ticket, and you're just getting a list of the rules you broke as reply, and the ticket is closed. And you still don't know that you were hacked. Is there any way to get to know exactly what you did wrong? (Then you could at least know what it was that went wrong, or if something was posted in your name without you knowing)

I'm curious about this, as lots of players spend more time in forum than in game, and loosing forum privileges can be sort of a big deal... And you would also loose access to the dev-tracker, wich would be painful for a PvP player trying to stay on top of coming changes.
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