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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,468
This is a big wall of text, but please read all of it to get the full idea.

Balance is very hard to ever get right as no one can agree on what powers need buffing/nerfing etc. No matter how much something is tweaked, there will always be debates.

The fact we also have a very large number of abilities now means that its getting very messy inside PvP maps with an array of different things hitting you at anyone time.

So my idea (which is quite drastic) would be a PvP set up that is separate to your PvE set up. This would only need to affect Space.

There is a screen like our normal ship boff station set up but its radically different. We only get to use a smaller number of boff powers. It could be as simple as everyone gets one ensign power for science, tac and eng, and one lt. power to match their ship class, but thats just a rough idea.

Everyone can still equip the same number of weapons, and get their inherent powers but the higher level ones, like miracle worker, photonic fleet are disabled.

A player can only select 5 consoles that are active. This means whether you have a 9 or 10 console ship, its fair. Players can still use their consoles they paid for as 5 consoles slots should still be ample to use several paid consoles.

Only 1 duty officer slot will affect their set up.

This set up will be switched on when ever someone enters a PvP match and their PvP set up automatically shows. when they leave it goes back to their PvE set up.

Fleet ships and lock box ships are docked their 10% extra bonuses to hull, shields etc.

The new PvP reputation system would be a big factor in providing bonuses in PvP only. This means if players want to unlock new abilities and get an edge the way to do it is to PvP. Any player can obtain the same level by playing the game. No need to spend extra money on buying power. This would be the only aspect that gives some people an edge, but that edge is obtain by hard work.

This hopefully solves a few issue;

1) The huge number of abilities is reduced, meaning pvp comes more down to skill than who can chain off the right number of abilities. This makes it more like tier 3 PvP where its a little more manageable for new players and less hectic all round. Teamwork and tactics are the order of the day.

2) It will be less confusing as there are less abilities to pick from and be hit with making counters easier to use. It should also make it more balanced as everyone gets the same boff station configs (3 ensign, 1 lt), and you will know what a ship is capable of.

3) People wont have access to the mega abilities that result in almost instant kills giving people time to enjoy the fight rather than being blown to hell inside 2 seconds.

4) Higher up powers can be tweaked for PvE as much as they like as they will never be used in PvP again.

5) Much more restrictive set up will give PvP players a new challenge to learn as they set up their ships.

6) It should make it much fairer all round. PvP Should largely be about skill, and gear. Not cash spent. Leave that for PvE only.

7) The PvP Reputation system does not affect normal PvE, and thus attracting leechers, but does give proper PvP players something to aim for, and still provides the hardcore elite PvP players with that sense of superiority.

Thoughts?

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission
Survivor of Remus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 242
# 2
11-09-2012, 05:03 AM
I've never been killed in 2 sec.
Honestly I can se where your comming from but building a good ship takes skill.
Building a good skill set takes skill.
Building a good BoFF/DoFF tree takes skill.
If this ever happened the pvp community would stop playing all together.
Pvp isn't about playing it on = ground. It's about defeating your enemy with respect but still not holding back.
On top of that your plan would destroy science. Every good science ablity for the most part is lt.cmd.
Yeah I really dislike this idea
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,468
# 3
11-09-2012, 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfpack12c View Post
I've never been killed in 2 sec.
Honestly I can se where your comming from but building a good ship takes skill.
Building a good skill set takes skill.
Building a good BoFF/DoFF tree takes skill.
If this ever happened the pvp community would stop playing all together.
Pvp isn't about playing it on = ground. It's about defeating your enemy with respect but still not holding back.
On top of that your plan would destroy science. Every good science ablity for the most part is lt.cmd.
Yeah I really dislike this idea
I've seen plenty of people die in 2 seconds. yes, its usually by surprise at the start of the fight and it can be argued that surprising your enemy, and all targeting the same guy is an valid and important tactic and all part and parcel of the experience but it does not help attracting new players if they are annihilated before they have a chance to see what's going on.

PvP has a certain stigma about it all ready. It wont stop people using tactics, or making decent builds but it might not frighten people away either. Either pvp changes or it dies a slow death.

If the idea is truly unattractive then how about making PvP into a sort of Normal and Elite group. Private matches can still be set as full on PvP like we have now, but pug queues use the more restrictive set ups?

You make a valid point about science ships, perhaps they would need to be adjusted to compensate, although sci have probably long needed a boost.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,247
# 4
11-09-2012, 05:29 AM
Personaly I say thanks, but no thanks.

Before I bother to stay and play a special adapted version of PvP meant to limit as well as balance I would rather wait and see if the Dev team is going to fix what they let go ignored so long.

I have no interest in going to a very restricted system of design that limits my BOffs, my vessel, my DOffs and almost every aspect of my gameplay after having played for so long under the current design parameters.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,468
# 5
11-09-2012, 05:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemepwe View Post
Personaly I say thanks, but no thanks.

Before I bother to stay and play a special adapted version of PvP meant to limit as well as balance I would rather wait and see if the Dev team is going to fix what they let go ignored so long.
We've waited for 3 years and in truth little has happened? How much longer do we 'wait and see' for? The way I see it, its time for a little thinking outside the box. something different but practical.

Of course this is just a rough idea. Not every aspect of this has to be used. It can be modified in any way people wish.

my main concerns are;

1) lets make it a little more attractive to new/inexperienced players, because we need the numbers.
2) lets make it fair, where skill is based on experience and not on who spent the most money, because you cant even pretend to have balance if people are out-buying the competition.
3) lets make it a little less of a mess on the battlefield, so people can enjoy themselves.
4) no one, no matter how hard they try will ever make the higher powers balanced. there are too many, that are too different to make eveybody happy.

maybe its me. i personally prefer tier 2 or 3 PvP much more than tier 5. i think its more enjoyable, less hectic and just much more fun.

Adapting to a new situation is what PvP players are meant to be good at, right?

Or is the status quo fine for everybody, because to me it's kinda dull.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,153
# 6
11-09-2012, 05:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainrevo1 View Post
1) lets make it a little more attractive to new/inexperienced players, because we need the numbers.
a new player needs to get into PVP without having to adjust his normal PVE setting.
What you are proposing is for everybody to make an in-depth analysis and theorycrafting BEFORE they even have seen a PVP match.

What opposes your theory is that a B'rel, with only 4 BOFF's and less consoles, hull, shields in an experienced hand is capable of destroying any ship with any console in hands of a noob.

What PVP needs is a reward system, adverisement in the launcher and ingame, ranking, so that the noobs can fight among themselves and do not get insta-killed by a pro.

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Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,247
# 7
11-09-2012, 06:20 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainrevo1 View Post
SNIP
I merely do not like it. No insult intended, but such a restrictive system is not an attractive draw to play PvP and ultimately it will be just as bugged and unbalanced as what we have now for all its restrictiveness.

Balance the system so it doesn'ty break everytime a new patch or content is released.

Its not just the P2W that chases the new players away but that the rules of the game are in a constant state of flux and it get tiring trying to keep up with the latest broken or item we can't use becuase its broken now when it worked fine just last month.

If the Devs have to dumb down PvP at endgame to make it more attractive to those whom have excuse on why they don't play, then kill PvP in STO.
I will find my enjoyment elsewhere in a game that is less trying to please everybody and less buggy from its attempts.
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,468
# 8
11-09-2012, 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by duaths1 View Post
a new player needs to get into PVP without having to adjust his normal PVE setting.
What you are proposing is for everybody to make an in-depth analysis and theorycrafting BEFORE they even have seen a PVP match.
I grant you that the set up required is a barrier from letting them enter straight away. It will take a few mins to set up, but I don't think its a difficult barrier to overcome. Perhaps a nice tutorial needs to be made as well.

Because its more restrictive the theory crafting would be much easier than what is is now. This is not life and death where you get one chance only to make it right. People will know what their skills are from PvE. Any new player entering for the first time will have their PvE set up and will probably make modifications after playing a few rounds of PvP. That's they way it has always worked.

Sure people will have to make an educated guess the first time but that is little different to the first time any of us entered. They will be able to modify their set up with PvP experience. I don't see that as a massive issue.


Quote:
What opposes your theory is that a B'rel, with only 4 BOFF's and less consoles, hull, shields in an experienced hand is capable of destroying any ship with any console in hands of a noob.
That has nothing to do with what I am saying. A vet player should be better than a newb even with a weaker ship at times, thats just the way of things. I'm not disputing that newbs should suddenly be able to go toe to toe with vets. That's a skill difference obtained over time. What I'm saying is the current set up, people can have unfair advantages by paying money. Whether its 2 newbs playing each other or 2 vets, the guy with the Bug ship beats the guy in the B'rel. I don't really think that's fair and for PvP only I would prefer to see that addressed if possible.


Quote:
What PVP needs is a reward system, adverisement in the launcher and ingame, ranking, so that the noobs can fight among themselves and do not get insta-killed by a pro.
I agree with that and leaderboards that allow new inexperienced players to fight amongst themselves is a fine idea, and perhaps solves many of the issues I have. Not all of them but it could be a start.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission

Last edited by captainrevo1; 11-09-2012 at 06:28 AM.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,468
# 9
11-09-2012, 06:24 AM
[quote=bitemepwe;6477831]
Quote:
I merely do not like it. No insult intended
None taken. I want PvP to get better and this is but one idea, and look if everyone hates it then, heck at least the devs know what NOT to do.

But I think these things need to be discussed because PvP needs help and its not going anywhere fast at the moment.

House of Cards - Lvl 46 Fed mission
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,015
# 10
11-09-2012, 06:32 AM
This would be a huge change and investment, and if they were going to devote the resources I'd like to see something like this instead which could provide an option for PvP with fewer choices to micromanage while leaving the current mechanics at cap unchanged:

Tier PvP queues. You get in a tier 3 ship, enter the queue, and are scaled appropriately. This would allow those who have toons that are actually tier 3 to play against solid PvP'ers while leveling as well as allowing vets to fly their old favorites and have a place to play without lvl 50 consoles everywhere.

This would also not create a completely separate mechanic for PvE and PvP, which the devs have stated they aren't keen on.
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