Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,160
# 121
11-09-2012, 04:03 PM
[quote=hereticknight085;648586you have TSS (that thing OP. seriously OP)[/QUOTE]

TSS itself is not OP it becomes very powerful when you add RSF to it though and frankly under fire you'd be silly not to
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,486
# 122
11-09-2012, 04:06 PM
To those pointing out strategies to maximize the effectiveness of Fire At Will for cruisers...


Yes. It is possible to make FAW do very high damage by reducing or eliminating the power drain.

However.

Fact is, it requires extensive support from EPTW, batteries, doffs, nadion inversion, and who even knows what other crazy strategies are out there, in order to make this work. You end up having to devote half your ship to just supporting that one attack if you want to do it often. And in this regard there is a fundamental inequality when it comes to how tactical abilities interact with weapons. Cannons are all about increasing DPS: Straight up, no strings attached, no power bleeding. You mount your cannons, you turn on the scatter volley and things explode. But for beams, FAW is *intensely* power hungry (and basically uncontrollable if you're using lots of beam arrays). It's not all plus, it has serious drawbacks that must be compensated for. In other words: Cannons require tactical slots, Beams require tactical slots AND engineering slots and other resources.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 123
11-09-2012, 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
TSS itself is not OP it becomes very powerful when you add RSF to it though and frankly under fire you'd be silly not to
I was just joking. It's not OP, far from it, but it is VERY powerful, especially with maxed Aux. I would know, if I hit TSS2 with Aux at 125, sufficed to say it takes a HUGE amount of damage to get my shields down. If I combine that with EPtS1, my shields usually won't go down, or if they do, it takes long enough that I can either make the target hurt badly, or other buffs come off cd and I can hit them.

And I agree, you hit RSF + TSS + EPtS, and suddenly your shields become invulnerable to everything short of the most bursty escorts/borg uber crits. I once had the pleasure of using RSF + TSS3 + EPtS3 with my aux maxed, and my shields shot up from gone to full in under 4 seconds. Then they stayed at around 70% for the next 30 seconds. It was quite... amazing. It should be noted I had 5 spheres and a tac cube firing on me.

So I fail to see how you can get wasted easily if you have your cruiser set up right. Even with only EPtS1 and TSS2, my shields are hard to bring down without some kind of drain. And if I hit EPS transfer and Nadion Inversion with the EPtS and TSS going, and then I hit an RSF, other than being a complete waste of my abiltiies, it makes my shields almost invincible. Til I get subnuked XD
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 186
# 124
11-09-2012, 05:53 PM
Wall of text alert but I think some may like it and I have too much to say on the subject.

Ok, this thread started with cruiser torpedo being nerfed compare to escort. For instance torpedo spread being more devastating on escort than cruiser because there is more torp in the spread. Well I can answer that real easy, TS2 if you have only a lt tac bof slot and ts3 if you have a lt com bof slot. I have the assault cruiser refit and odyssey tactical and TS3 has as much torp in each as my tac escort or carrier escort so I don't see the problem with that I get as much torp in one or the other.

The only thing that doesn't sit well with me is power drain from beam array compare to cannon. Cruiser are supposed to have big powerful warp core and they can`t sustain power to beam array, something doesn't add up. I get more power drain from 6 beam array than from 4 dhc and 3 turrets with crf on tiny defiant. How come starfleet didn't desing its big heavy cruiser to sustain the power drain from its weapon? That point is not what I would call a "cannon" thingy but mostly a common sense point of view, it just doesn't seem logical to me. And beam shouldn't be the second least powerful weapon in game. In my humble opinion they should be on par with single cannon or better, and they should get a bonus damage from the capacity of the warp core powering it, hence a big cruiser with its big warp core could do great damage where it wouldn't be as efficient on a Defiant.

As for cruiser been so under powered as been useless, and even worse if its an engineer piloting it, I totally disagree, we're don't do as much damage as escort but its enough to grab agro from NPC without threat control, enough to grab 1st and 2nd place often in starbase 24, gorn, klingon space, and with escort present and I'm not talking about skittles boat. Its enough to take probe duty in KA, kill all probe, get cube out and kill it while still killing all the probe just tanking cube while I take care of probe. I wouldn't call that useless. I do all that with my engineer character with all my cruisers which are, mirror assault cruiser, mirror star cruiser, assault cruiser, fleet heavy cruiser, odyssey tactical cruiser and last one assault cruiser refit.

So I don't see a problem with cruiser been underpowered, it more of a problem that escort can tank almost as well as cruisers. That is the problem which will be solved in part with recent change to shield distr dof and borg set. I've been to tribble testing the new stuf and it does make quite a difference, my tac toon can't tank half as well as it used to with 3 pces borg set which is now 2 pces. I find myself bugging out often to heal and wait for buffs cd to be over so I can go back in where shield proc would have given me the time to hang in there and keep blasting away or just to hit bfi and have my 3 purple shield distr doff regen my shield in no time since I tend to get agro a lot with my defiant and now fleet defiant and Jem'Hadar Attack ship. The more I got hit the better the regen. Combine just those 2 and with standard bof healing power you could stay alive long enough to blow up almost anything you're shooting at before they blew you up. On the other hand, I don't notice much in my playing style with my engineer in his cruiser of even when I fly escort, I used only 2 pces borg anyway and can do without when console isn't linked to it anymore, I know I tried

So if you're not doing enough damage to be usefull something doesn't add up. I won't say l2p but I would say, try another set up the one your using isn't working.
Jamal : Tactical space specialist. USS SledgeHammer, USS Bug Warrior and many others
E'Mc2 : Science Reman torp T'Varo, deadly annoyance
Kunmal: Tactical fed Klingon, ground specialist, USS Kanewaga
Ka -tet Tier 5 starbase and shipyard, almost Tier 5 sci. All other fleet property at max lvl

Last edited by innuwarrior; 11-09-2012 at 06:32 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,198
# 125
11-09-2012, 06:05 PM
Would it be a dangerous idea to give cruisers a small energy drain (ala nadion inversion) bonus? I think that would be a grand idea.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,449
# 126
11-10-2012, 01:43 PM
I would say weapons are fine and the torp does it jop no need to fix anything.

the torp punching through shields that is another game this game relies on it enegergy weapons for that and using the heavies on the hulls.This is reverse to what star ship combat is suppose to be even in the shows/movies.

The range shoud be longer if you ask me out to 15 or 20.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 127
11-11-2012, 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by innuwarrior View Post
Wall of text alert but I think some may like it and I have too much to say on the subject.

Ok, this thread started with cruiser torpedo being nerfed compare to escort. For instance torpedo spread being more devastating on escort than cruiser because there is more torp in the spread. Well I can answer that real easy, TS2 if you have only a lt tac bof slot and ts3 if you have a lt com bof slot. I have the assault cruiser refit and odyssey tactical and TS3 has as much torp in each as my tac escort or carrier escort so I don't see the problem with that I get as much torp in one or the other.

The only thing that doesn't sit well with me is power drain from beam array compare to cannon. Cruiser are supposed to have big powerful warp core and they can`t sustain power to beam array, something doesn't add up. I get more power drain from 6 beam array than from 4 dhc and 3 turrets with crf on tiny defiant. How come starfleet didn't desing its big heavy cruiser to sustain the power drain from its weapon? That point is not what I would call a "cannon" thingy but mostly a common sense point of view, it just doesn't seem logical to me. And beam shouldn't be the second least powerful weapon in game. In my humble opinion they should be on par with single cannon or better, and they should get a bonus damage from the capacity of the warp core powering it, hence a big cruiser with its big warp core could do great damage where it wouldn't be as efficient on a Defiant.

As for cruiser been so under powered as been useless, and even worse if its an engineer piloting it, I totally disagree, we're don't do as much damage as escort but its enough to grab agro from NPC without threat control, enough to grab 1st and 2nd place often in starbase 24, gorn, klingon space, and with escort present and I'm not talking about skittles boat. Its enough to take probe duty in KA, kill all probe, get cube out and kill it while still killing all the probe just tanking cube while I take care of probe. I wouldn't call that useless. I do all that with my engineer character with all my cruisers which are, mirror assault cruiser, mirror star cruiser, assault cruiser, fleet heavy cruiser, odyssey tactical cruiser and last one assault cruiser refit.

So I don't see a problem with cruiser been underpowered, it more of a problem that escort can tank almost as well as cruisers. That is the problem which will be solved in part with recent change to shield distr dof and borg set. I've been to tribble testing the new stuf and it does make quite a difference, my tac toon can't tank half as well as it used to with 3 pces borg set which is now 2 pces. I find myself bugging out often to heal and wait for buffs cd to be over so I can go back in where shield proc would have given me the time to hang in there and keep blasting away or just to hit bfi and have my 3 purple shield distr doff regen my shield in no time since I tend to get agro a lot with my defiant and now fleet defiant and Jem'Hadar Attack ship. The more I got hit the better the regen. Combine just those 2 and with standard bof healing power you could stay alive long enough to blow up almost anything you're shooting at before they blew you up. On the other hand, I don't notice much in my playing style with my engineer in his cruiser of even when I fly escort, I used only 2 pces borg anyway and can do without when console isn't linked to it anymore, I know I tried

So if you're not doing enough damage to be usefull something doesn't add up. I won't say l2p but I would say, try another set up the one your using isn't working.
Yeah, you won't see the problem if you want the Oddyssey or the new assaults refit. You don't see the grand sceme of things? They made the Oddyssey to address alot of the underpowerd or less "tankiness" of other cruisers. They did this so people would gravitate to buying 3 of them. If you hadn't noticed, they made alot of new cruisers come in three parts that you have to buy in order to enjoy everything the ship has to offer. Even the new Vesta Class is made in the same manner.

I already know whats going to happen to borg kit so that why i have been staying mum on that subject.

Torpedos power for players do need a jump. Have you ever played against the Federation NPC's on Fleet Alert? They are very hard, and it's not because of their escorts kicking your butt with cannons. It's the torpedos coming from their cruisers that tear through your shields. I have never been destroyed much in Fleet Missions except for playing against the Federation or Tholians. The fact that NPC's torpedos can do so much more damage than players' show that the NPC's follow a different rule than the player side. It's like they are following closer to canon roles than player side. You don't see large speads of topedos coming from escorts, you don't see cannon fire that is 400 rounds per minute, and you don't see ships flying around a super fast speeds, either. Their cannons fired at the same rate they did in the shows, and the escorts are armed with a proximity cannon that strips you shields if you get too close to them. Even the Akira was firing torpedos in all directions like it should in the canon world because its 15 torpedo bays all arounf the hull of the ship. I think the NPC's are made by a seperate set of Devs than the player side. The player side seem to have certain ships boosted and others nerfed to encourage players into buy certain ships or things like lock box keys. It would not hurt to bring proportionate power to the Player's topedos for all to enjoy.

Last edited by alexindcobra; 11-11-2012 at 08:04 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 128
11-11-2012, 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
The fact that NPC's torpedos can do so much more damage than players' show that the NPC's follow a different rule than the player side.
He FINALLY sees the light!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
It would not hurt to bring proportionate power to the Player's topedos for all to enjoy.
Aaand it's gone... -.-

I think you and rodentmaster should get into a boat and have a pow wow cuz both of you seem to have the same issue with NPCs actually being a challenge courtesy of more HP and damage output.

Let me ask you this. If NPCs were just as strong as players, where would the fun be? I know for a fact that I can slaughter NPCs almost indiscriminately even on Elite setting. And that's with their boosted health and damage. Imagine how pathetically easy it would be if their ships were just as limited as ours? Wouldn't be a challenge, wouldn't be fun at all.

And if I had torps that could do 75k crits without having HY active, I would ONLY run torps. Ever. Which would then eliminate all the other weapons in the game. Please man. Think...
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 445
# 129
11-11-2012, 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Yeah, you won't see the problem if you want the Oddyssey or the new assaults refit. You don't see the grand sceme of things? They made the Oddyssey to address alot of the underpowerd or less "tankiness" of other cruisers. They did this so people would gravitate to buying 3 of them. If you hadn't noticed, they made alot of new cruisers come in three parts that you have to buy in order to enjoy everything the ship has to offer. Even the new Vesta Class is made in the same manner.
Please list all the cruisers that are involved into this nefarious '3 part' plan? As far as I know, your 'alot of new cruisers' is two, one for each faction. With the Vesta, we now have 3 total, but the Vesta is a sci ship, not a cruiser, so I still don't see your point. I'm not seeing this trend towards extra costs for cruisers you are speaking of unless you are talking about the'Fleet' versus 'C-store' versus 'basic' thing many ships have, in which case that is not a cruiser specific issue at all. Seems like you are again throwing out 'facts' without actually thinking about them. Also, in terms of Cryptic trying to get you to buy new things: a company trying to SELL products to me? Say it ain't so!

In addition, since when was the problem with cruisers (even non-odyssey cruisers) the lack of 'tankiness'? Did you maybe mean 'dps' here, or are you honestly saying that cruisers need both a tanking AND a damage buff?

Finally, he didn't say he only runs the Odyssey, so I don't know why you are accusing him of missing the big picture - it looks like he doesn't use any Galaxy or Excelsior classes, but the rest are effectively in his list.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
I already know whats going to happen to borg kit so that why i have been staying mum on that subject.

Torpedos power for players do need a jump. Have you ever played against the Federation NPC's on Fleet Alert? They are very hard, and it's not because of their escorts kicking your butt with cannons. It's the torpedos coming from their cruisers that tear through your shields. I have never been destroyed much in Fleet Missions except for playing against the Federation or Tholians. The fact that NPC's torpedos can do so much more damage than players' show that the NPC's follow a different rule than the player side. It's like they are following closer to canon roles than player side. You don't see large speads of topedos coming from escorts, you don't see cannon fire that is 400 rounds per minute, and you don't see ships flying around a super fast speeds, either. Their cannons fired at the same rate they did in the shows, and the escorts are armed with a proximity cannon that strips you shields if you get too close to them. Even the Akira was firing torpedos in all directions like it should in the canon world because its 15 torpedo bays all arounf the hull of the ship. I think the NPC's are made by a seperate set of Devs than the player side. The player side seem to have certain ships boosted and others nerfed to encourage players into buy certain ships or things like lock box keys. It would not hurt to bring proportionate power to the Player's topedos for all to enjoy.
Already been explained how, in fact, torps that crit for insane dmg is a bad idea. The rest of this, though, is I think highly revealing about where you are coming from. It seems to me that you feel like escorts should not have been the damage dealing class at all - I would wager that you are one of those people who puts stock in the idea that 'escort' as a class name means they should be there only to 'support' the main guns - i.e. the cruisers. I've never found that line of reasoning particularly compelling, but again, it shows that you aren't upset about the AMOUNT of damage being done by ships etc - just WHICH ships are doing it.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,759
# 130
11-11-2012, 09:11 PM
Most everyone I'n this thread is a elite player
And very knowledgeable about there own playstyle
And ships and generally the game overall.

Here is my question to you all

When your were a level 1 noob most did not read the forums
Or wiki for days before downloading and playing the
Game , download completed you looked at the characters
And ships then rolled your character and began playing.

Dps is the goal I'n every story mission I'n space
Point ship at target make target go boom fast
This is standard to level 50

At level 50 what kind of training has the story missions provided
To the engineer I'n his cruiser....... Dps, that's the problem

Poor training by cryptic, poor initial character creation, poor ships
Pictures on characters screen for career choice.

It takes much more skill to rock with a cruiser as healer and tank
Than it does to fire weapons at targets that don't fire back at you
I'n a escort. I'n pve.

The easy job escort is well trained
The hard job cruiser is untrained

I run all three characters that's what I have noticed

Isn't this the root to most of the cruiser/Engineer evils ?

1. Noobs are falsely lead into picking engineer by creation
Txt and ship pictures

2. Engineers/cruisers are poorly trained by the story missions
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
Leva........Tactical.....Mailu KDF Sci

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
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