Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 21
11-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
needing only 3 of 4 subsystems does not bring balance to the game.
Nice job totally ignoring my whole argument there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
sci ships, pathetic and week? pve'ers, so clueless. STO is a pvp game. as in, it is built apon a combat system designed for player ships to combat each other and fill certain roles. the pve in this game, and like all other games basically, is not built to require anything other then DPS, a cool factor, and a variable amount of time needed to kill something.
In other words, "I'm a PvPer, therefore everything else is irrelevant." In case you haven't noticed, that is not even remotely the way the game progression is set up. This is pure wishful thinking on your part, and quite frankly I'm glad of it. PvP in any game just isn't forgiving enough for new players, besides it's really never been something I've been interested in, there's enough rage without actually killing other players yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
a sci ship is least able to do this well, because its the weakest at dealing damage. but the sci ship is also the most important thing to have around in pvp, its ability to befuddle another player is what makes getting a kill possible, on any good team the healing is so strong that damage cant over come it alone.

the vesta as is will be an absolute pleasure to pve in im sure. but it is a mold breaking ship in pvp. a sci ship is supposed to set up the kill, not set up the kill, and kill all by itself, which the vesta will absolutely be able to do.
You're literally saying here that you admit that the status quo doesn't work properly for the majority of the content in the game, but because it would require your niche to adapt its expectations a little you think a fix shouldn't be put in the game. Wow, just wow.

The Vesta won't even have that much more spike damage than a regular sci ship without sacrificing half of its sci capability. Tac slots are very important for damage, especially spike damage, and the only way the Vesta gets an unusual number of those is by using the LtC slot and having just 5 sci abilities. Given how heal heavy most PvP sci builds seem to be, that's almost all of your offensive abilities. Or you just get all your spike from mines with the DHCs for long term DPS, and come out with a basically standard sci build with a bit more damage that relies on only as many power levels as the other two types.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 373
# 22
11-08-2012, 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
STO is a pvp game.
I had to read that three times, and do two double takes. I think you're the only person that has ever said that about STO in the history of the game.
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Centurion maximus92
12th Legion, Romulan Republic
12th Fleet

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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 60
# 23 just a thought
11-10-2012, 08:36 AM
Hope this is in the right place... all this Internet stuff is still quite new to me.
Another New Ship is always a great idea... but I was wondering... there is already a problem with some folks whom have invested alot into their ships being unjustifiably indignant and/ or insulting to weaker/newer players... so... my question is this... do STO developers have any plans to add another level into the STF equation..?
To explain further... there are now enough ships with differant levels of capabilities that it can be frustrating for some to lose the optional because a couple of weaker ships are in the ESTFs, so... why not bring in an,'Advanced' level and catagorize ships..? this would accomodate that problem as well as providing a new area of advancement.
In saying this... could not the same sort of system be incorporated into the PvP aspects of STO..? This would eliminate the problem of players with advanced and well equipped ships from camping in the Arenas, Kerrat, etc and picking on weaker ships (yes, I know this is extremely dishonorable behavior but it happens alot)
If this idea were pursued, it would only really work if STO incorporates some sort of block so that those with,'Elite' or,'Advanced' ships and weapons could not use these in a lower level scenario.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 24
11-10-2012, 11:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by macarthur1961 View Post
my question is this... do STO developers have any plans to add another level into the STF equation..?
Probably should have had its own thread, but whatever. This kind of thing has been suggested a number of times before, a greater number of difficulties, gear requirements, the whole thing. Not allowing better gear into easier instances is I think new, but mainly because this has only really been discussed for PvE before, where I would argue against such maximums (it's nice to be able to help a fleetmate bang out their first few STFs), and not for PvP where they do make a lot of sense. And of course there have been the suggestions to make Mk XII STF gear purchasable with EDC, and thus make ESTFs optional. Unfortunately, Cryptic has opted to create a new Reputation system (which everyone hates) instead of going for any of these options. Sadly, this seems to be pretty standard practice for them.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,538
# 25
11-10-2012, 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
Nice job totally ignoring my whole argument there.
a whole paragraph went toward showing why your argument failed. 2 mines and an aft beam for the subsytem targeting don't require 1 of the 4 subsytems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
In other words, "I'm a PvPer, therefore everything else is irrelevant." In case you haven't noticed, that is not even remotely the way the game progression is set up. This is pure wishful thinking on your part, and quite frankly I'm glad of it. PvP in any game just isn't forgiving enough for new players, besides it's really never been something I've been interested in, there's enough rage without actually killing other players yourself.

You're literally saying here that you admit that the status quo doesn't work properly for the majority of the content in the game, but because it would require your niche to adapt its expectations a little you think a fix shouldn't be put in the game. Wow, just wow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ravin View Post
I had to read that three times, and do two double takes. I think you're the only person that has ever said that about STO in the history of the game.
this is what pve'er denial looks like, lashing out at someone telling them the truth. this is a pvp game, because the sci ship in the form its in exists at all. and because the 3 ship types balance each other so well when they face off with each other. it would not be this way if the game was set up purely for pve in mind from the start. this is not my fault, i didn't make the game this way, i didn't cause pve to only really need dps, i don't want 1 of the 3 types of ships to be far less useful at pve, and i didn't cause pve to be played so much more then pvp in a game designed from the ground up to be balanced for pvp. this is just the way it is, don't blame me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
The Vesta won't even have that much more spike damage than a regular sci ship without sacrificing half of its sci capability. Tac slots are very important for damage, especially spike damage, and the only way the Vesta gets an unusual number of those is by using the LtC slot and having just 5 sci abilities. Given how heal heavy most PvP sci builds seem to be, that's almost all of your offensive abilities. Or you just get all your spike from mines with the DHCs for long term DPS, and come out with a basically standard sci build with a bit more damage that relies on only as many power levels as the other two types.
wrong. spike damage is not high up time damage, just CRF1 is enough to make 3 DHC deadly when they need to be. this isnt escort replacing damage, but when a sci ship is around and sets up a target for an escort to take out, this sci ship will have 3 extra DHCs to bring to the table to help bring down the sci debuffed target. proboly at least bringing an extra 33% more damage into the equation, thats an insane thing to introduce in a game with margins this tight.

it does away with the sci ships disadvantage, that its not a damage dealer at all, but a control and debuff wizard. thats what a sci ship does, and that makes it pointless in most pve. sorry, thats just a fact. this sci ship will be a pleasure to use in pve though im sure. but its just another case of a ship getting released into a pvp system with 0 disadvantages and 3 huge mold breaking advantages. pvp balance depends on ships having disadvantages to go along with advantages, this stupid vesta invalidates all other options, and can perform its role without compromise, wile performing the role of an escort to at least 3/4 of its level.
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Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 373
# 26
11-10-2012, 01:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
This is what PvE'er denial looks like, lashing out at someone telling them the truth. This is a PvP game, because the sci ship in the form its in exists at all, and because the 3 ship types balance each other so well when they face off with each other. It would not be this way if the game was set up purely for PvE in mind from the start. This is not my fault.

I didn't make the game this way. I didn't cause PvE to only really need DPS. I don't want 1 of the 3 types of ships to be far less useful at PvE. I didn't cause PvE to be played so much more then PvP in a game designed from the ground up to be balanced for PvP. This is just the way it is, don't blame me.

Had to fix that quote a bit to make it a tad bit more readable.

Not in denial at all, and I'm a PvP'er in most MMO's I play. I wasn't lashing out either, just making an observation. Your exact quote was "STO is a PvP game." 95% of the PvP'ers will tell you that STO has no meaningful PvP at all, therefore it is not a PvP game. Your argument would have validity if the PvP was at the forefront of the game's development, unfortunately it was not. The balance exists because of STO's PvE endgame, which also works well for what PvP there is.
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Centurion maximus92
12th Legion, Romulan Republic
12th Fleet

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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 27
11-10-2012, 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
this is a pvp game, because the sci ship in the form its in exists at all. and because the 3 ship types balance each other so well when they face off with each other. it would not be this way if the game was set up purely for pve in mind from the start.
The sci ship exists in its current form primarily because they over-nerfed it back in Season 1 or 2 or whenever it was and have never fixed it. This is not a PvP game, the entire game progression is built around PvE, all of the good equipment comes from PvE, PvP isn't even good for getting dilithium, and that's all you can do with it. If sci ships are well balanced in PvP but not in PvE then that is a mistake in the game design, because everything else in the game is built around PvE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
this is just the way it is, don't blame me.
You are the one fighting a proposed fix though. It's true that this isn't the way I would have liked it to be fixed, I would have preferred a rebalance of abilities to make them more useful. I also think they went overboard with the universal boff stations, it should only have had the ensign to ensure it kept its sci role, but this is what they're giving us, and we definitely need something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
a whole paragraph went toward showing why your argument failed. 2 mines and an aft beam for the subsytem targeting don't require 1 of the 4 subsytems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
wrong. spike damage is not high up time damage, just CRF1 is enough to make 3 DHC deadly when they need to be. this isnt escort replacing damage, but when a sci ship is around and sets up a target for an escort to take out, this sci ship will have 3 extra DHCs to bring to the table to help bring down the sci debuffed target. proboly at least bringing an extra 33% more damage into the equation, thats an insane thing to introduce in a game with margins this tight.
Mines are primarily potent because of their abilities. Cannon abilities are also a huge portion of their power. Both start at Lt. level, and the Vesta only gets one tac Lt. slot without moving the LtC and becoming a wimpy escort. So you can either have your cannons be potent or have your mines be potent, but not both (and either way you don't get APB or APO). Since players usually rely on their shields, and you hold that shield drains are worthless in PvP, the smart way to go seems to be to get the cannon skill and give up on high powered mines, in which case you may as well get the turrets for a bit of extra damage and more procs. Now, I wouldn't run a high level of weapons power just for those turrets, but maybe 30, and maybe a setting to switch to that pulls out shield and engine power to boost it. Sort of like how most people in escorts and cruisers run a low level of Aux power (none as much as possible with AtB builds) with maybe a setting or a battery to boost heals.

For PvE purposes the Vesta is a completely non-overpowered attempt to make sci ships relevant. A good Vesta is probably going to be around the damage range of a good cruiser, but it's not going to match an escort. It will however have significant CC capability to keep it equally relevant, while good cruisers can tank even the most powerful targets in addition to dealing good DPS and escorts outshine both of the others in DPS without any special secondary ability. That's a well balanced game for the current state of PvE. STO's PvP has always been struggling to hitch a ride along with the primary PvE game, and it's still going to be. I don't know what the solution is for that, and I do think it would be sad if, as some have suggested, PvP disappeared entirely. I do occasionally enjoy a 1 on 1 with a friend, it can be an amusing diversion. But pushing to keep PvE unbalanced is not realistic and doesn't help your cause.
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# 28
11-10-2012, 03:13 PM
i have to thank you guys, really. you have opened my eyes. you have proven to me its completely pointless to try to argue such things with people that have no experience in high level play. heres something i posted earlier, a vesta at its worst in pvp. im done trying to debate this with you point by point, if anyone is going to argue that sci ships are useless in the state they are in or that this isn't a pvp system at its core that your all just pveing in i might as well argue with someone who thinks the earth is flat.



when people think of damage dealing, they only seem to think about a lone bug stomping a mud hole in everything in front of it. by looking at the vesta stats, and seeing that it only can only mount 3 cannons and have limited tac stations in most situations, they know it cant do what a bug or any other super escort can, so its damage dealing will be negligible. ROFL. really, i cant think of any other explanation to people not getting this.

this type of damage dealing, its nothing. its pissing in the wind of cross heals, it accomplishes nothing on its own, you cant simply shoot someone to death when there are good healers around, and potential targets that know how to take a hit.

enter debuffing, the way kills are gotten. when someone has no functioning subsystems because of VM, no resistance running and nothing available to use because of a well timed SNB, a huge hull resistance debuff from sensor scan, is held in its own or its runabouts tractor beam so they have 0 defence score, are stuck in warp plasma and receiving a dot wile having a double hold on them that they cant dig out of, and having the damage potential of CRF1 with 3 DHCs, well let me tell you that damage will go a long way then.

see, a normal sci ship already can do all that, there are 3 that come with a LTC eng, they can set up kills easily with some or all of that afflicting a target at once, so they are easy picking for an escort. but the vesta, well it can deal so much damage on its own, and the best type of damage, true DHC spike damage, that it could potentially get these kills on its own. and if not, an escort is going to notice someone in that bad a way and shoot at the target too. 100 times i have been in this debuffed state, and all the times i survived it was by the skin of my teeth. stack another 1/4- 3/4 burst spike damage in there, and non of those times i lived would i make it out alive.


if you look at the vesta stats, and cant clearly see this play out every single time, you are inexperienced. thats all right, we all were. thats not going to change the fact that the vesta truly is uber overpowered.


sci captain uber build

3 non aux DHC, 2 crono mines, or tric mines, 1 beam array for subsytem targeting.

TT1, CRF1
EPtS1, AtB1, EWP1
EPtA1, AtB1

TSS1, HE2, ST3, VM3
TB1

runabouts
3 tech doffs, 2 vm doffs

every one of these abilities can be used at their global cooldown. never ending VM, never ending tractor hold from pets and yourself, never ending plasma hold, global TT and CRF. the only question is how long it will take for you to die, wile you are rendered completely helpless. don't for get SA, the longer you take a pounding, the more damage it will deal.

this is just the most uber thing i can think of, there are proboly at least 5-10 other builds that could completely dominate as well.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,639
# 29
11-10-2012, 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
i have to thank you guys, really. you have opened my eyes. you have proven to me its completely pointless to try to argue such things with people that have no experience in high level play. heres something i posted earlier, a vesta at its worst in pvp. im done trying to debate this with you point by point, if anyone is going to argue that sci ships are useless in the state they are in or that this isn't a pvp system at its core that your all just pveing in i might as well argue with someone who thinks the earth is flat.

.
*pats tommy on the back* yup your patience is giving you great credit. I felt like storming out way earlier.

Needless to say I agree with you thoughts on the vesta
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 30
11-10-2012, 03:58 PM
I don't mean to be too blunt or cruel, but I honestly don't think this game's ship designers know or play enough PvP to tell us what we should think or feel about any of their ship concepts.

Whether they think the Vesta is too strong or too weak is immaterial, the real problem (and what ultimately rubs) is that they just don't have the experience to hold such an opinion one way or the other.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
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