Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 31
11-10-2012, 04:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by intrepid74656 View Post
Impressive! Only thing I would change was the Lt. Cmdr skill of the Cmdr to CSV2 instead of CRF2. In combination with GW it helps against crowds.
Thanks! I did have CSV for a little while for exactly that reason but it felt a little weak compared with the focused fire of CRF (in comparison with a Tac, there's just not enough to buff it for it to really work for me). The only thing I really miss is a Tractor Beam - I had one for a while but the Peghqu' really needs those hull and shield healing abilities to cope with damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
anyway, why stack a console that only is actually working when the shields are gone and has already a diminishing return on the second console that cuts about a third of it's usefullness...and not stack a forth that boosts all 7 of his weapons by about 70 dps each, is constantly usefull and has 0 diminishing return?
Because if I build it the way you'd suggest (which I have - that was my initial build for a while) it's just too fragile. There's a 'tipping point' between offence and defence with this ship/build and that Disruptor Coil/Neutronium Alloy was it - and unless you fly the same build in the same configurations you'll never 'get' it.

Sure, I could've lost the Plasmonic Leech but this is still a Sci ship, even if I run with high weapons power, the Leech buffs my Aux levels nicely in combat which means I'm not completely gimping my Sci skills in order to put out more DPS - note also that I'm specced into Flow Caps and I'm using the Omega set for the Tetryon Glider.

Is it the optimal setup? I very much doubt it, but what it does it does very well - it puts out more than respectable damage, doesn't screw up my Sci skills, can take a big hit without popping - that's what I call a balanced build and they're the kind that are (to me at least) the most fun to fly.
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Last edited by weylandjuarez; 11-10-2012 at 05:02 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 32
11-10-2012, 06:42 AM
Engineering consoles don't really have diminishing returns (except at very high, impossible to reach values), it's just that the way they work is a little unintuitive and there's a complicated chain of equations to convert resistances.

Essentially, the resist value is converted from an exponential one into a linear one. When you see "+20" resist (one purple Neutronium Alloy Mk XII), the game takes the percentage resistance (20%) and converts this into your effective resistance: 16.6%.

Now, if you add another of the same Neutronium console, you have 28.3% in total, for a gain of 11.7%; it seems as though your effective resistance (not your tooltip resistance) is gaining less from the second console.

However, the effective resistance is the amount of extra damage it will take for you to be killed in comparison to your pre-resist value. For example, say your hull is at 1,000:

If you have +25/25% percentage resistance, your effective resistance is 20%: I now only deal 800 per shot, so it takes another 25% extra damage (25% of 800 = 200) to kill you

If you have +50/50% percentage resistance, your effective resistance is 33.3%: I now only deal 666 () per shot, so it takes another extra 50% damage (50% of 666 = 333) to kill you

And so on. It's easier to think of the resist consoles as effective health, rather than flat resistances (which could theoretically make you invincible).

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,020
# 33
11-10-2012, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Interesting stuff...
Thanks for that shimmerless - a nice explanation and confirms what I thought was true from my own experiences with the armor/alloys.
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Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 34
11-10-2012, 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weylandjuarez View Post
Thanks for that shimmerless - a nice explanation and confirms what I thought was true from my own experiences with the armor/alloys.
Always happy to help!

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,561
# 35
11-10-2012, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Engineering consoles don't really have diminishing returns (except at very high, impossible to reach values), it's just that the way they work is a little unintuitive and there's a complicated chain of equations to convert resistances.

Essentially, the resist value is converted from an exponential one into a linear one. When you see "+20" resist (one purple Neutronium Alloy Mk XII), the game takes the percentage resistance (20%) and converts this into your effective resistance: 16.6%.

and so on
thats like the exact definition of deminishing return...gz! Only thing crytic does is to translate the value of the number into a percentage. It still is a diminishing return on the console though + whatever you skilled. If you maxed the ship armor (both skills) you won't even get the whole benefit from the console to start with.

it's still less optimal to sacrifice an offensive console slot, from which you benefit each shot you do, for a defensive console, that does not offer you it's complete benefits and on top of that is only usefull for direct hull dmg. it does virually nothing while you have shields on. (exept for diminishing the bleedthrough)
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Last edited by baudl; 11-10-2012 at 12:45 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,273
# 36
11-10-2012, 01:06 PM
If I were running the Fleet Hoh'sus (yes, a KDF ship in a Federation forum thread!), I suspect I'd put a torp console into the 4th tac console. . .but that's largely because I don't try using a BoP to slug it out. I carry 1 DBB, two DHCs, and a quantum torp (with High Yield 3), and do decloak alphas that can potentially kill a player in a single run, or at least do significant damage (useful for breaking tanks). Doesn't always work, but it's awesome when it does.

In the end, it depends on what you're using the escort for.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 37
11-10-2012, 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Engineering consoles don't really have diminishing returns (except at very high, impossible to reach values), it's just that the way they work is a little unintuitive and there's a complicated chain of equations to convert resistances.

Essentially, the resist value is converted from an exponential one into a linear one. When you see "+20" resist (one purple Neutronium Alloy Mk XII), the game takes the percentage resistance (20%) and converts this into your effective resistance: 16.6%.

Now, if you add another of the same Neutronium console, you have 28.3% in total, for a gain of 11.7%; it seems as though your effective resistance (not your tooltip resistance) is gaining less from the second console.

However, the effective resistance is the amount of extra damage it will take for you to be killed in comparison to your pre-resist value. For example, say your hull is at 1,000:

If you have +25/25% percentage resistance, your effective resistance is 20%: I now only deal 800 per shot, so it takes another 25% extra damage (25% of 800 = 200) to kill you

If you have +50/50% percentage resistance, your effective resistance is 33.3%: I now only deal 666 () per shot, so it takes another extra 50% damage (50% of 666 = 333) to kill you

And so on. It's easier to think of the resist consoles as effective health, rather than flat resistances (which could theoretically make you invincible).
I did some tests last night because I was incredibly annoyed at the fact that engi consoles don't work as well as any others when it comes to their job (stopping damage). I also confirmed a suspicion that putting all neutronium is exactly the same as putting varied consoles. So whoever started that rumor that putting varied consoles for the resistances is better than putting straight out of one console or straight out neutronium needs to uninstall.

Anyways, back on response topic. I put on 4 mk XI blue neutroniums (cheap, easy to get, and still decent), which gives an effective bonus of +70 to all resistances. After checking the numbers on my resistances (not nearly as high as I thought it would be, which explains why I had to modify my playstyle a little XD), I then put on 2 mk XII white diburniums (+70) and checked, confirmed my resistances were the same as the 4 mk XI blue neutroniums, and then added 1 mk III diburnium white console. That equated to a total of +80 resistance, which is what you get from 4 mk XII purple neutroniums. And guess what I found? Only a miniscule 2.4% increase in defense. I then ran the test with +75 resistance (the equivalent of 4 mk XII blue neutroniums), and was just as disappointed to find that I only got a 1.6% bonus in defense over the 4 mk XI blues.

So I now can safely say. Any mk XII purple engi consoles aren't worth their cost. ESPECIALLY neutroniums. Why pay 120 mil ecs for a 2.4% increase in defense over just paying 1.1 mil ecs?

I also did some tests with tactical consoles and science consoles. And guess what? The ones that aren't directly skill related (aka a lot of sci consoles) are all linear progressions in effectiveness. You don't lose out ANY of the listed values, whereas the engi consoles are all logarithmic in progression, which means... Good at lower values, but the curve levels out quicky as you get to higher values and you quickly lose out on actual bonus to resistance.

For the record, this was done in system space outside of DS9, about 25k away from the docking ring. It should also be noted that my energy damage reduction skill is maxed out, should that affect results.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
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# 38
11-10-2012, 03:35 PM
It's possible that some of the other Engie consoles approach the asymptote (i.e. have diminishing returns) quickly, but damage resistance isn't one of them. DR is scaled to max out at 75% effective resistance, but bear in mind that even with +100 DR you're only reaching 50% effective resist, and you're still gaining more or less the same effective resist per point of DR.

Basically you won't ever see diminishing returns on resistance consoles unless you game the system heavily (probably requiring the Intrepid ablative armor).

Quote:
Originally Posted by baudl View Post
thats like the exact definition of deminishing return...gz! Only thing crytic does is to translate the value of the number into a percentage. It still is a diminishing return on the console though + whatever you skilled. If you maxed the ship armor (both skills) you won't even get the whole benefit from the console to start with.

it's still less optimal to sacrifice an offensive console slot, from which you benefit each shot you do, for a defensive console, that does not offer you it's complete benefits and on top of that is only usefull for direct hull dmg. it does virually nothing while you have shields on. (exept for diminishing the bleedthrough)
The second paragraph is arguable but the first paragraph is wrong. There's no diminishing return, you're getting the same effective health (or effective resistance) per point of resistance added, either through skills or through consoles.

As far as I can tell, the equation comes down to something roughly like this (values will be very, very minorly different due to Cryptic scaling the curve towards 75%):

Effective resistance = 1 - (1 / (1 + tooltip resistance))

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples

Last edited by shimmerless; 11-10-2012 at 03:39 PM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 39
11-10-2012, 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
It's possible that some of the other Engie consoles approach the asymptote (i.e. have diminishing returns) quickly, but damage resistance isn't one of them. DR is scaled to max out at 75% effective resistance, but bear in mind that even with +100 DR you're only reaching 50% effective resist, and you're still gaining more or less the same effective resist per point of DR.

Basically you won't ever see diminishing returns on resistance consoles unless you game the system heavily (probably requiring the Intrepid ablative armor).
I would agree with you here, but I found after testing that it's too fast on those diminishing returns. I found that as I added each neutronium, what I got for it was significantly less. Almost a 3% discrepancy between consoles at each interval (IE #1 got me 15%, #2 got me 12.5%, #3 got me 9.8%, #4 got me 7% not true values but you get the idea). I would say that almost 12% loss in defense value is pretty significant.

I know this isn't the right place to say it, but I think it should be said that engi consoles in general are too weak. The amount you need to stack to get any decent resistance is just nuts. As you said, at +100 you only get 50% bonus. To get that +100 you need at least 3 consoles that are specialized. And when you're dealing with the damage output capability of NPCs and a lot of PvP players, it's just not feasible to be able to build properly to counter.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
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# 40
11-10-2012, 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
I would agree with you here, but I found after testing that it's too fast on those diminishing returns. I found that as I added each neutronium, what I got for it was significantly less. Almost a 3% discrepancy between consoles at each interval (IE #1 got me 15%, #2 got me 12.5%, #3 got me 9.8%, #4 got me 7% not true values but you get the idea). I would say that almost 12% loss in defense value is pretty significant.

I know this isn't the right place to say it, but I think it should be said that engi consoles in general are too weak. The amount you need to stack to get any decent resistance is just nuts. As you said, at +100 you only get 50% bonus. To get that +100 you need at least 3 consoles that are specialized. And when you're dealing with the damage output capability of NPCs and a lot of PvP players, it's just not feasible to be able to build properly to counter.
Lol, I guess I'm not terribly good at explaining things...

What I mean is that the percentage you're getting is the proper value, and you're getting exactly the same with each Neutronium added; it's just that it's being converted into a linear percentage rather than an exponential one (in which you could become virtually invincible with little effort).

To put it another way, taking again for example the ship with 1,000 hull:

If you have +100 (100%) damage resistance, your effective resistance is 50%, meaning I now only deal 500 damage per shot and it takes 100% more damage (100% of 500 = 500) for me to kill you.

I know it's kind of fruity to try and wrap your head around, I myself had to do a few double takes before I understood what Cryptic was doing.

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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
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