Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 41
11-10-2012, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
Lol, I guess I'm not terribly good at explaining things...

What I mean is that the percentage you're getting is the proper value, and you're getting exactly the same with each Neutronium added; it's just that it's being converted into a linear percentage rather than an exponential one (in which you could become virtually invincible with little effort).

To put it another way, taking again for example the ship with 1,000 hull:

If you have +100 (100%) damage resistance, your effective resistance is 50%, meaning I now only deal 500 damage per shot and it takes 100% more damage (100% of 500 = 500) for me to kill you.

I know it's kind of fruity to try and wrap your head around, I myself had to do a few double takes before I understood what Cryptic was doing.
I think we're talking about totally different things here. I am not arguing how the damage calculation is going. I am simply commenting on the fact that the defensive bonus provided by each new console is NOT linear, but logarithmic, with the lower the value, the more defense bonus given.

Example:
+20 gives 16% bonus defense, +40 gives 29%, NOT 32%.

That is what I mean by the diminishing returns. And basically it goes downhill from there. And I can tell you for a fact that I am not getting the same amount of defense from each neutronium I stack on. If it was a truly linear curve then I would be getting 16% with each neutronium. But since I am not, and in fact am losing defense with each added console, I can only conclude it's a logarithmic curve and that it follows that trend. Which I have confirmed with testing.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 42
11-10-2012, 07:31 PM
I don't know if I can explain it in any other way that'd make sense if you're still not getting it, my apologies dude.

You're not supposed to get another 16% each time, that would make the conversion utterly pointless. Whatever your effective resistance is, that's your effective health as a result of the tooltip resistance total.

Again, I know it's counterintuitive but it really works. The basic formula is that your tooltip percentage is the amount of extra damage it'll take to kill you after your effective resistance has been applied.

So, with the 1,000 hull example, for +20, you have 16.6%: I only deal 834 damage, meaning it takes 20% more (20% of 834 = 166) for me to kill you. For +40, as you said, you have 28.3%, so I only deal 717 damage, meaning it takes roughly 40% more (40% of 717 = 286) for me to kill you.

There is an extremely mild (to the point where it's negligible) form of diminishing returns, of course, because the system is geared so you can only reach a maximum of 75% effective resist. If you're just slotting consoles, you will always get the same benefit though.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 43
11-10-2012, 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
I don't know if I can explain it in any other way that'd make sense if you're still not getting it, my apologies dude.

You're not supposed to get another 16% each time, that would make the conversion utterly pointless. Whatever your effective resistance is, that's your effective health as a result of the tooltip resistance total.

Again, I know it's counterintuitive but it really works. The basic formula is that your tooltip percentage is the amount of extra damage it'll take to kill you after your effective resistance has been applied.

So, with the 1,000 hull example, for +20, you have 16.6%: I only deal 834 damage, meaning it takes 20% more (20% of 834 = 166) for me to kill you. For +40, as you said, you have 28.3%, so I only deal 717 damage, meaning it takes roughly 40% more (40% of 717 = 286) for me to kill you.

There is an extremely mild (to the point where it's negligible) form of diminishing returns, of course, because the system is geared so you can only reach a maximum of 75% effective resist. If you're just slotting consoles, you will always get the same benefit though.
Ah, I see what you mean. You're saying that instead of actually adjusting the defense of the ship, it adjusts the attack of the attacker. So instead of say increasing my defense by 16%, it instead reduces your attack by 20%. Alright, now we're on the same page.

Thank you for clarifying. But tbh, it's a stupid system if you ask me.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,075
# 44
11-11-2012, 12:26 AM
http://www.stowiki.org/Damage_resistance

this is how i determin when stacking more resistance is obsolete. and in my opinion thats around 35 damage resistance. Now you could say, thats exactly 2 neutronium consoles...

...BUT, through skills, atleast i start at around 18.6% resistance (6 points in starship hull plating = 23 dmg resi magn). So adding only one neutronium mk xi (17,5 dmg resi magn) will get me to my desired 28.5% which is around 40.5 damage resistance magnitude. Thats around the point where the curve starts to flatten too much, and adding a resistance console onto that becomes a waste.

anything that gets you above 40 damage resistance magnitude (cosnole + skills) is argueable because it still only effects hull dmg and not shield dmg, especially when you sacrifice a tactical console slot for it, which is the main point of critique actually.
The only ship i would aim for 75 resistance magnitude is in an hull tanking cruiser (which is senseless anyway), but thats where the curve falls off drastically, but still well in reach for a monotanium alloy console (40 resi magn) and kinetic resistance.
Go pro or go home

Last edited by baudl; 11-11-2012 at 12:43 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,757
# 45
11-11-2012, 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gthaatar View Post
To not slot the maximum number of Energy weapon Tactical consoles that your ship can have? Particularly on escorts.

Back when I started playing early on in the year and right up to when I took a 3 month hiatus, the rule of thumb was for all of your tac consoles to buff your selected energy weapon. But now it seems like a LOT of people are dropping a console or two and slotting Torpedo consoles.

When and why did this start happening? I just don't get it
-------------------

Perhaps more people are playing STO
And fewer are playing space shootum up online

Others may think it's not if I win but how I win

I think everyone knows what consoles and weapons do the
Most Dps .
But it may not be fun just to have more Dps at the cost
Of immersion into the storyline of star trek
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
Leva........Tactical.....Mailu KDF Sci

JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 46
11-11-2012, 01:52 AM
To be honest, if your running a set of Torp spreads as BO abilities (and you should be if you have a torp equipped) the damage difference between the additional energy tac console and a torp console is near negligible.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 91
# 47 Clueless
11-11-2012, 04:50 PM
I have (almost) NO idea what any of you are talking about, although I (for some odd reason) thoroughly enjoy the discussion. Are you saying I can put consoles in slots they don't go in? Or weapons into console slots rather than weapons slots? How did you all learn all this stuff? Throwing out all the technical terms and knowing exactly what it means, what it does, and what effect it has on 10 other technical things?? I mean, there's no manual for this game is there? You all just picked it up through forums and game play?

Seriously - help me be more like you! Cause I do love this game.
Survivor of Romulus
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,456
# 48
11-11-2012, 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirscht View Post
I have (almost) NO idea what any of you are talking about, although I (for some odd reason) thoroughly enjoy the discussion. Are you saying I can put consoles in slots they don't go in? Or weapons into console slots rather than weapons slots? How did you all learn all this stuff? Throwing out all the technical terms and knowing exactly what it means, what it does, and what effect it has on 10 other technical things?? I mean, there's no manual for this game is there? You all just picked it up through forums and game play?

Seriously - help me be more like you! Cause I do love this game.
LOL. That's a fantastic opening line, I admire your honesty.

No they're not talking about putting consoles into slots they don't go in. They are arguing the pros and cons of running different consoles in certain slots.

Example: Which is better? 3 energy weapon + 1 torpedo console, or 4 energy consoles

OR: Running 3 energy weapon consoles and putting a universal console in tactical (something like the borg console which can go anywhere). Moving that borg console from wherever it was before (engineering/science) frees up that slot for more survivability.

An "optimum" build (I.E one focused for pure damage) will keep all 4 energy weapon consoles, but specialised builds with more torps and torp-heavy bridge officer abilities might benefit from torpedo consoles.

It's all a balancing act, and going for what's "optimum" might not be the most fun, but I completely agree with you that it's an interesting discussion, and a thread I really enjoyed reading!

Especially the analysis of engineering consoles - very good read. Keep it up lads!
Lieutenant
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 91
# 49
11-12-2012, 06:12 AM
Example: Which is better? 3 energy weapon + 1 torpedo console, or 4 energy consoles

OR: Running 3 energy weapon consoles and putting a universal console in tactical (something like the borg console which can go anywhere). Moving that borg console from wherever it was before (engineering/science) frees up that slot for more survivability.



Thanks that makes more sense. I'm still trying to figure out the simple stuff. Like what dps even stands for. What is a starship flow capacitor? Disrupter, phaser, kinetic damages - what does what? Etc. I'm sure I'll catch on. When I used to go to conventions (a loonnng time ago) They used to sell official tech books for the ships. I shoulda picked up a few.

Thanks!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 50
11-12-2012, 06:28 AM
The only reason to run Torp consoles over energy is if your energy damage output is really low. Like if you're running all power to AuX, or if you have only/mostly projectile weapons slotted.

For an escort with DHCs and CRF/CSV, and weapon power at 125+, there is no reason not to run all energy consoles. Maybe you will do one or two % more damage against a completely un-shielded target, but you'll loose 10% against anything that has shields.

Edit: Using tac slots for universal console is almost always fail. The only place in game damage is not king, is if you're a healer in PvP, or if you have a non-lethal approach to Transport Defence.
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