Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 41
11-10-2012, 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
its not worth it. if you got things so figured out, try the pvp ques next time. you talk of how things work so well in pve, well thats just fine for pve, were even the most elite stf is absolute child's play. at the very least, a few pvp matches should give you a hint that you don't know even 1/10 of what you think you know about this game.
I do know PvE, obviously a lot better than you do. PvP is a totally different game though, and one that I know relatively little about.

Think it through here. In PvP, targets are made durable by high resistances and colossal healing. In PvE, targets are made durable by having enormous numbers of hitpoints. That alone would make for a totally different equation, and one that makes sci ships weaker. But there's more. In PvP, killing a target requires an enormous burst of damage in a short time to temporarily exceed heals, and ideally that target should be weak for that time. In PvE, that burst of damage won't be nearly enough to kill a tough target, and additional damage will be required, but it will not heal, making DPS more important than spike, and making short duration sci abilities less potent. PvE targets have negligible defense, PvP targets have very high defense, that changes the usefulness of TB, as does the fact that the only PvE targets that move at appreciable speed come in groups which must all be killed at once.

My point all along was simply that, for PvE purposes, the Vesta is a badly needed buff to a ship type. Maybe sci ships do work well enough in PvP, but that doesn't matter to the majority of the player base, and it doesn't mean that the game as a whole is working, especially given that the content bias of the game is clearly in favor of PvE (there are 105+ Fed PvE missions and only 16 PvP ones, and all the PvP ones get their rewards only through a single daily).

Now, if you want to talk about a way to make the Vesta less potent in PvP without sacrificing its PvE effectiveness, I'm more than willing to listen and might even get behind the idea. I would certainly be in favor of making the LtC sci only, which would prevent the Vesta from becoming a fast cruiser like you seem to be concerned about and limit the number of tac buffs it can use (even for PvE a Vesta with APB, DPB, CSV, GW, and CPB would likely be OP). But PvE sci desperately needs a buff, and the Vesta is the only one we look like getting.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,796
# 42
11-10-2012, 11:32 PM
Oh, please.

You don't need a vessel as powerful as the Vesta to do PvE.

Any nerfs that are PvP-oriented won't be noticed by the majority of you. You'll still faceroll PvE with the vessel.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 43
11-11-2012, 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
CSV at 7 km is a turd sandwich hold the bread. Here's why.
You would be absolutely right if I had said to stop there. I didn't, I said to keep heading in, at least to 5km where CPB can be used. I spend 80% of my time at 1 notch of forward or reverse speed 1.5-2.1 km from my target. Holding CSV until 7 km rather than using it immediately ensures that any destructible projectiles won't hit you and you will take down the shields of many targets before the torp recharges while at the same time saving as much as possible of the buff for short range where it has maximum effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
CPB is terribad. VM is the first thing I want to throw at an escort with a hot stick. TT loaded for shield distribution, so much so that "it can also be used for shield distribution" is so far out of touch I'm not really sure we're playing the same game.
I guess maybe you missed the fact that this is about PvE? The whole reason for having the Vesta is for PvE, since PvPers keep claiming that sci ships are fine in their game. And yes, we are playing different games, I'm playing PvE where spike damage is rare and a Distribute Shields keybind is more than adequate 95% of the time, and when I do die it's almost never with significant shields left on another facing. Using TT every time you need to distribute your shields would be a waste, and the number one importance of it is to clear Assimilate Ship and keep your abilities available. As for CPB, it may be weak against targets that have high resistance to it, but it is very valuable against those that don't, like every PvE enemy in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redricky View Post
dontdrunkimshoot is one of the most knowledgeable players around. You are posting misinformation regarding the value of abilities because you have a shallow understanding of them. Respecs aren't free, and the one doing a disservice to "credulous newbs" is you.
Whatever he may know, he doesn't know how PvE works, and it's pretty clear that you don't either. It really is a different game, so yes, some abilities that are good in one are poor in the other, and vice versa. I know the abilities that I use, I know what it takes to save a mission or kill a target in an STF. I doubt that build would have been effective even in PvP due to healing problems, but it would definitely have been a poor choice in high level PvE because it lacks extreme DPS, multi target CC (the only kind that matters most of the time), and exceptional tanking (meaning ability to shrug off a high powered torp or ISO and tank Donatra indefinitely). Without one of those it is at best a passable build for an STF, where new players learn high level play and acquire high quality gear, whatever its merits in PvP. And no one should ever respec for any build without trying it out first, both for effectiveness and personal preference, respecs are simply too expensive, and abilities are cheap.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 44
11-11-2012, 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
Oh, please.

You don't need a vessel as powerful as the Vesta to do PvE.

Any nerfs that are PvP-oriented won't be noticed by the majority of you. You'll still faceroll PvE with the vessel.
I watch a channel of extremely skilled ESTF players some of whom have 13k DPS builds. That's for a Guramba, and does vary down to as low as 9k at times. Their best sci ship player can get up to 5k DPS out of a non-fleet Recon Sci. Given that DPS is the primary factor in ESTFs, that disparity is a major problem.

Now, what kind of nerf are you thinking about? An accuracy nerf might well work, maybe -1% for all Vestas, no one misses in an STF but it is supposed to be important in PvP. Another option might be a reduction in the maximum stack of SA, perhaps to 2/3 of what a normal ship gets, that wouldn't matter most of the time in PvE, but PvPers seem to think that SA is potent. I'm open to these things, I just want to see a level playing field in PvE.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 45
11-11-2012, 12:36 AM
You can finish STFs with 5 T3 ships piloted by people with clue. So much for the challenge.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,796
# 46
11-11-2012, 12:54 AM
I've done Elite STFs with a DSSV armed with nothing special. In fact, it was a heal build for PvP. All I did was set weapons power to 100, and I was destroying the Cubes while keeping myself alive during it.

The AI don't heal themselves and they don't move much. Just broadside and they are dead. Use the counters to their abilities. Use a debuff here and there and they go pop so easily.

No one needs an OP Vesta to complete these STFs easily.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 47
11-11-2012, 01:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoge00f View Post
I've done Elite STFs with a DSSV armed with nothing special. In fact, it was a heal build for PvP. All I did was set weapons power to 100, and I was destroying the Cubes while keeping myself alive during it.

The AI don't heal themselves and they don't move much. Just broadside and they are dead. Use the counters to their abilities. Use a debuff here and there and they go pop so easily.

No one needs an OP Vesta to complete these STFs easily.
You're absolutely right, a team that knows the mission decently well, watches chat, and has builds that aren't totally incompetent will ultimately finish the mission. A PvP heal build can certainly keep itself alive through an STF (it's designed to do so in a faster paced environment, after all), and if you can stay alive and keep shooting everything will inevitably die. I've done Elites with total strangers and missing a person and still completed comfortably. But you won't get optionals without high powered builds, and you won't cover well for incompetent teamates without high powered builds, and as things stand sci ships basically don't have high powered builds. High level PvE doesn't mean you win, high level PvE means you get the optional with 10 minutes to spare, or you solo ISE and get the optional while the rest of your team sits at the spawn point and applauds. I'm not making those up, either, those are real things that people can do on a regular basis. But not if they're using current sci ships.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,178
# 48
11-11-2012, 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
I do know PvE, obviously a lot better than you do. PvP is a totally different game though, and one that I know relatively little about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
Whatever he may know, he doesn't know how PvE works, and it's pretty clear that you don't either. It really is a different game, so yes, some abilities that are good in one are poor in the other, and vice versa. I know the abilities that I use, I know what it takes to save a mission or kill a target in an STF. I doubt that build would have been effective even in PvP due to healing problems, but it would definitely have been a poor choice in high level PvE because it lacks extreme DPS, multi target CC (the only kind that matters most of the time), and exceptional tanking (meaning ability to shrug off a high powered torp or ISO and tank Donatra indefinitely). Without one of those it is at best a passable build for an STF, where new players learn high level play and acquire high quality gear, whatever its merits in PvP. And no one should ever respec for any build without trying it out first, both for effectiveness and personal preference, respecs are simply too expensive, and abilities are cheap.
your implying high level pve and pvp are somehow on the same level, and you need very different builds to do ether. sorry, thats not how things are. pve even in its most difficult form is so far below pvp in terms of quality build required and skill required, its not even on the same planet. any fleet action i go into i get first place effortlessly, any stf i do i carry the team, often doing more damage then the other 4 combined. these are with my pvp builds, that have to stand up to stresses 10 times as harsh. any good pvp build will face role all pve.

CPB is proboly more worthless in pve, npcs are just huge hitpoint sponges, and thats a skill that does a set amount of damage. player ships have a tiny fraction of the hitpoints, but they have heals, resistance, and rotating active, thats how they make up for it. a skill like CPB would thus be better against player ships

there is no healing problem from 2 AtB at all, with EPtA1, and aux batts, theres always at least 30 aux 90-95% of the time. and all the heals you can use twice as often as well. you wouldn't know this unless you tried it, i tested this extensively and use it in 2 out of 3 of my characters with no healing problems.
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Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,796
# 49
11-11-2012, 02:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
You're absolutely right, a team that knows the mission decently well, watches chat, and has builds that aren't totally incompetent will ultimately finish the mission. A PvP heal build can certainly keep itself alive through an STF (it's designed to do so in a faster paced environment, after all), and if you can stay alive and keep shooting everything will inevitably die. I've done Elites with total strangers and missing a person and still completed comfortably. But you won't get optionals without high powered builds, and you won't cover well for incompetent teamates without high powered builds, and as things stand sci ships basically don't have high powered builds. High level PvE doesn't mean you win, high level PvE means you get the optional with 10 minutes to spare, or you solo ISE and get the optional while the rest of your team sits at the spawn point and applauds. I'm not making those up, either, those are real things that people can do on a regular basis. But not if they're using current sci ships.
I did the KASE optional with my Sci healboat setup the first time. If everyone isn't completely fail, they'll do it just fine.
Republic Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 314
# 50
11-11-2012, 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
your implying high level pve and pvp are somehow on the same level, and you need very different builds to do ether. sorry, thats not how things are. pve even in its most difficult form is so far below pvp in terms of quality build required and skill required, its not even on the same planet. any fleet action i go into i get first place effortlessly, any stf i do i carry the team, often doing more damage then the other 4 combined. these are with my pvp builds, that have to stand up to stresses 10 times as harsh. any good pvp build will face role all pve.

CPB is proboly more worthless in pve, npcs are just huge hitpoint sponges, and thats a skill that does a set amount of damage. player ships have a tiny fraction of the hitpoints, but they have heals, resistance, and rotating active, thats how they make up for it. a skill like CPB would thus be better against player ships

there is no healing problem from 2 AtB at all, with EPtA1, and aux batts, theres always at least 30 aux 90-95% of the time. and all the heals you can use twice as often as well. you wouldn't know this unless you tried it, i tested this extensively and use it in 2 out of 3 of my characters with no healing problems.
You bring everything back to PvP... Something a high percentage of players never do cause it's always been broken as we all know.Anyone else notice that so called Elitist PvPers have the uber builds and the bestest skills?

You lost me when u babbled about PvP


Join date July 2012 ... My feckin arse ( Feb 2010 )
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