Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,738
# 51
11-11-2012, 02:25 AM
And just to drive the point home about how much PvE doesn't teach about the game:

I was just in an STF where 3 of the ships weren't even cycling EPTS.

Those fail players wouldn't even know what to do with the Vesta if it was handed to them.

If the Vesta lost the hangar bay, it would still be a great ship, but also less annoying in PvP.


Click here and here if you are interested in learning more about PvP.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 52
11-11-2012, 02:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinead51 View Post
You bring everything back to PvP... Something a high percentage of players never do cause it's always been broken as we all know.
LOL, do you not see the pattern ? PvP is "broken", because bul**** ships like Besta are added. With no care to balance, just to fill pockets.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 53
11-11-2012, 02:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
your implying high level pve and pvp are somehow on the same level, and you need very different builds to do ether.
As played, they absolutely are. I suppose the difference is that high level PvP is about winning the match, while high level PvE is about dominating the mission by an enormous amount and/or ensuring success with even the worst team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
pve even in its most difficult form is so far below pvp in terms of quality build required and skill required, its not even on the same planet.
Required, yes, desired, no. That is always a problem with PvP in any game, you have to be very good at it to not just be destroyed humiliatingly at every turn, while PvE is made just to require you to be fairly good, and if you want to go above and beyond that you can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
any fleet action i go into i get first place effortlessly, any stf i do i carry the team, often doing more damage then the other 4 combined. these are with my pvp builds, that have to stand up to stresses 10 times as harsh. any good pvp build will face role all pve.
Any good player with a good build going into a pug STF will do better than most teammates, and very likely wind up carrying the whole team to victory by pulling them out of the fire. That's even more true in normals where a vast majority don't know what they're doing at all. A cruiser with a simple EPtS/EPtW chain and a competent captain will dominate the scoreboard of most groups, because few players manage to break 2k DPS even in escorts, when 4k is the minimum for a decent build.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
CPB is proboly more worthless in pve, npcs are just huge hitpoint sponges, and thats a skill that does a set amount of damage. player ships have a tiny fraction of the hitpoints, but they have heals, resistance, and rotating active, thats how they make up for it. a skill like CPB would thus be better against player ships
CPB is highly potent against NPCs, as I said before it can take down half of a facing on most enemies. An escort will be better at this, of course, I dropped it from my BoP pretty quickly on realizing that the DHCs and powerful tac skills made it irrelevant, but it is nevertheless an extremely valuable contribution for a PvE sci ship to make because the shields on targets do have to go down rapidly and many times a player needs to be able to solo one or more opposing ships and can't rely on allies to do part of the work for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
there is no healing problem from 2 AtB at all, with EPtA1, and aux batts, theres always at least 30 aux 90-95% of the time. and all the heals you can use twice as often as well. you wouldn't know this unless you tried it, i tested this extensively and use it in 2 out of 3 of my characters with no healing problems.
I don't know what you're doing with it to achieve that, when I briefly tried one on my BoP today it pulled my Aux power down to 5 points whether it started at 60 or 40. But whatever, if it works in PvP, good for you, it's still nothing more than a weak escort in PvE, because it doesn't have controls, isn't going to successfully tank the 30k through full shields torps that happen every so often, and can't stack enough powerful buffs to do high level damage.

Actually, I can give a prediction of how much damage it will do, since it's not dissimilar to a build I tried on my BoP. That build had max weapons power and chained CSV1 and TT1, although it did also have a GW1 and APO1+2, and logged about 3.3k DPS with Mk XI rare gear. It did have an extra DHC and 2 turrets, which will probably about balance with your better gear. Then subtract out 100 for the GW over time and divide by 1.05 to take out the APOs, and we get 3.067k, the wiki has TB at 10 damage and TBR at 100, relating that to Folcwin's skill point effects table TB should be 50-80 per pulse depending on skill, and most pulses in the game are at 1 second intervals, so we get 3.1k DPS. Certainly better than most pugs, but poor in relation to high powered STFers. (And yes, I dropped that build and found a better one for an instant .3k boost, and have been improving my equipment. Haven't done a parse in a while, I suppose I should.)

EDIT: Forgot the 4th tac console, it was 6 am and I hadn't been to sleep yet. That'll bring the DPS up to 3.2, maybe even 3.3.

Last edited by jadensecura; 11-11-2012 at 10:29 AM.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,808
# 54
11-11-2012, 03:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinead51 View Post
You bring everything back to PvP... Something a high percentage of players never do cause it's always been broken as we all know.Anyone else notice that so called Elitist PvPers have the uber builds and the bestest skills?

You lost me when u babbled about PvP
the core of pvp is very balanced, and about 30 times funner then the pve. honestly, i dont know how any of you stay interested in this game wile just playing the pve.

pvp is the opposite of broken, it functions wonderfully, theres just a handful of cheese and overpowered crap you encounter every once and a wile. your just repeating this self perpetuating BS that does a lot more damage to pvp then any of the imbalanced things that have been added to it, like the vesta.

pve teaches you how to play wrong, its like the devs are playing a trick on you. a little bit of relearning, and a lot of question asking of pvp'ers that are all happy to help, and a little expereince and you can pvp with the rest of the impossibly good players. and you will be able to steam roll all the pve you play now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
I don't know what you're doing with it to achieve that, when I briefly tried one on my BoP today it pulled my Aux power down to 5 points whether it started at 60 or 40. But whatever, if it works in PvP, good for you, it's still nothing more than a weak escort in PvE, because it doesn't have controls, isn't going to successfully tank the 30k through full shields torps that happen every so often, and can't stack enough powerful buffs to do high level damage.
your aux doesn't instantly restore after the first AtB expires, it creeps up at your transfer rate. so the second AtB is activated at that low, not all the way restored aux level, and the aux that didn't get used climbed up to its peek. plus EPtA is running, further keeping it healthy. its kinda sloppy, and the buffed energy levels are all over the place, but the cooldown reducing is the main thing. there is no comparison between 1 AtB and 2, 2 is massively better.

1 shots are 1 shots, usually just rotating EPtS and having knetic armor is enough to survive the BS borg torps. sometimes i use HE and TSS at low aux levels, and the heals arent great. but its like i have 2 copies of them, and they work great when i need them and i use an aux batt.
gateway links-->Norvo Tigan, Telis Latto Ruwon, Sochie Heim, Solana Soleus
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,703
# 55
11-11-2012, 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jadensecura View Post
I've been feeling the same way about you for a while now.


No, CPB, the most powerful shield drain sci has, particularly since it's multi target. Maybe it is weak in PvP where your targets have resistance to it, but with only moderate Aux it can take down half a facing on an ESTF cube.



I did not say TBR, one of the riskiest powers to carry into an STF, I said TR, Tyken's Rift, the AoE power drain/torp killer which, with the high Aux the Vesta will allow, might just take down a target's shields for a full 10 seconds. Maybe not quite as good at single target as Energy Siphon, but the torp killing and emergency probe/BoP slowing make up the difference and make it a valuable way to protect your team.



I posted a full sentence on the many ways to use PSW, and I skipped a few too, for example it can also be useful if you can get in front of the probes in KASE and use it on them just before they reach you, giving you an extra 15 seconds or so to kill them and causing ~10% hull damage.



Maybe in PvP, although I find it hard to believe, but in PvE the delay, randomness, single target nature, and short duration make it one of the most useless powers there is. I suppose it's better than Mask Energy Signature, and AFKing is of course better than a poorly used TBR, but that's about all that can be said for it. Using VM is definitely wasting a boff slot that has better uses.



I'm perfectly willing to believe that AtB builds can be powerful, and it's true that I haven't tried one myself, I'm just not a cruiser person. But my math was accurate, and the fact that it's going to be nerfing almost all of the heals you posted severely is also accurate. If you want to do that you need heals that aren't going to be affected by the fact that your Aux power is constantly near or at nothing. Now, it does seem that the wiki was wrong and AtB does not currently share a global with EPtS, so you might get close to full uptime on that by this method, and that is certainly powerful, but it only goes so far, and when pressed you will find yourself without significant healing that can be used at a moment's notice. Worse, you're now running a ship without a real role: its healing is too weak to tank effectively, it of course cannot approach the firepower of an escort (all the more since you have neglected all sci damage), and it lacks the good controls and debuffs like GW and the energy drains, leaving only a random single target control/firepower debuff, another single target control, and the captain abilities that could be used to better advantage on a stronger ship and build.

To sum up: the information in your post is so backward it could be considered trolling, whether that's what you're trying to do or not.
looool thanks for the laugh, joke is on you.....
hmmm Gecko is that you?
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 56
11-11-2012, 04:43 AM
I actually managed an Infected (I think? The one with the three cubes) run as an Engie in a Mirror Star and an Engie in some kind of 'scort. Yes, it was just the two of us. Whenever I have to PvE grind I'm not even really paying attention any more, I just zone out and mash the appropriate spacebars/buff rotations.

I want to second dontdrunk's sentiment that there's nothing "broken" about PvP. There are big problems with it for sure, but if the core game weren't so strong none of us would stick around as long as we have. In fact the biggest problem is that newer players would rather take the whole, "Oh it's broken so we can ignore it" route than give it a try.

And PvP in STO is super easy to learn, it's not this mythical obscure art. Any of us would love to help you guys out! We really would, it'd make our day if we had one more player in the queues.

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 658
# 57
11-15-2012, 12:50 PM
Well, I bought the Vesta on the first day of S7 so I could use it for Tour (probably the one place where it is significantly OP, beat all my previous times by a minute or two despite the engine switching nerf, making a number of mistakes, and having to cross Tau Dewa). Here are my impressions so far.

Durability is, unsurprisingly, on par with other sci ships: tough shields, weak hull that usually doesn't matter because of the tough shields.

The phaser console may be OP, I haven't used either of the other superweapons (Gal-X lance and Guramba javelin), but this one is decidedly super. It gets 12k DPS for 12 seconds, then a 3 minute recharge (EDIT: actually 4k DPS, got the numbers mixed up somehow I guess). You do have to keep it on target for the full 12 seconds though, otherwise it deactivates and the rest of the run is lost.

The inertia is a bit worse than the Recon Sci, which is taking some getting used to, but is probably fair given the other advantages.

Firepower, which was the most contentious issue, has proved to be around what I expected. The overall feel is rather like my BoP but with only one CSV. Ultimately, while it has significantly better firepower than other sci ships, it doesn't seem at all out of line with what's needed in high level PvE.

Last edited by jadensecura; 11-24-2012 at 06:38 PM.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 61
# 58 Nope...
11-15-2012, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimmerless View Post
And PvP in STO is super easy to learn, it's not this mythical obscure art. Any of us would love to help you guys out! We really would, it'd make our day if we had one more newbie to crush in the queues.
Fix't. As for new people in the queues, nope, not gonna happen.

PvP is broken. It has been broken for years and the devs have made it clear they aren't interested in fixing it or even attempting to make it balanced. The main goal and focus of STO has always been on PvE content while the PvP was just an afterthought that was tacked on to give players something else to do.

PWE will exploit the **** out of it now. They've already started selling Zen ships that are significantly more powerful with unique consoles and advantages that give them a powerful edge in PvP. There's no way that anyone else can compete without a lot of hassle and frustration (and dying) or being a wallet-warrior and paying up.

And for what? Dilithium? Some marks? There are no PvP rewards that make it worthwhile to even bother PvPing.

No sorry, I doubt anyone cares if it would make the day to have one more newbie to crush in the queues.
The necessity of needing macros (keybinds in STO parlance for some odd reason) in order to keep up is only the tip of the iceberg.

Why waste time on unrewarding content?

Last edited by endafresh; 11-15-2012 at 01:02 PM.
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