Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 154
# 131
11-12-2012, 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellico1 View Post
Most everyone I'n this thread is a elite player
And very knowledgeable about there own playstyle
And ships and generally the game overall.

Here is my question to you all

When your were a level 1 noob most did not read the forums
Or wiki for days before downloading and playing the
Game , download completed you looked at the characters
And ships then rolled your character and began playing.

Dps is the goal I'n every story mission I'n space
Point ship at target make target go boom fast
This is standard to level 50

At level 50 what kind of training has the story missions provided
To the engineer I'n his cruiser....... Dps, that's the problem

Poor training by cryptic, poor initial character creation, poor ships
Pictures on characters screen for career choice.

It takes much more skill to rock with a cruiser as healer and tank
Than it does to fire weapons at targets that don't fire back at you
I'n a escort. I'n pve.

The easy job escort is well trained
The hard job cruiser is untrained

I run all three characters that's what I have noticed

Isn't this the root to most of the cruiser/Engineer evils ?

1. Noobs are falsely lead into picking engineer by creation
Txt and ship pictures

2. Engineers/cruisers are poorly trained by the story missions
And still those elite players you seem to get mad about somehow learned to manage their ships and got better. Nothing stops a new player to do the same. To get a challenge you could always up the difficultiy level, then take a look at the skill tree and abilities and start testing. Something went wrong? Try to get behind why and overcome it. That's the usual process of learning, you know.

The biggest outcry usually comes from 2 types of people. Those that think they should do well and rock the game no matter how bad their build and playstyle is and those that think they are the best of the best just by entering the game without having to learn anything.

While I do not disagree that PvE missions are a joke you seem to forget that most players do not want it harder. An example you may remember if you were already part of the game: Some time ago Cryptic upped the difficulty of the Undine Dreadnought in "Stop the Signal", so people couldn't faceroll it anylonger and actually had to apply some strategy. It was harder, but doable if you not just sat there in front shooting away. The outcry was beyond belief and it got nerfed again. A proposal to add a couple more scripted abilities to NPC ships. People started whining that they don't want them to be more challenging. Yes, PvE is a joke, but the common STOer doesn't like to do more than hit spacebar.

As for your second point about tanking. Actually taking an escort to an elite STF PuG is far better training in tanking than taking a cruiser.
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decker999
Join Date: Aug 2010
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 891
# 132
11-12-2012, 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post

Cannons require tactical slots, Beams require tactical slots AND engineering slots and other resources.
Is this suppose to be unreasonable? That seems fairly reasonable to me.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,075
# 133
11-12-2012, 12:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by momaw View Post

Cannons require tactical slots, Beams require tactical slots AND engineering slots and other resources.


besides thats total BS. The engineering slots do the same thing for cannons as for beams...EPtW, DEM. No requirement for it, just a boost.

you could say they have certain synergys with engineering powers, but thats just as true for cannons.

anyway, this sentence, completely false assumptions.
Go pro or go home
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 186
# 134
11-12-2012, 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
Finally, he didn't say he only runs the Odyssey, so I don't know why you are accusing him of missing the big picture - it looks like he doesn't use any Galaxy or Excelsior classes, but the rest are effectively in his list.

Very good point, looks like he mentionned 2 of the ship I bought and conveniently forgot the others. I did say I do what I said I do with all my cruisers. And I'd like to had, each cruiser has a different load out for exception of Torpedo which I use on all my built. 180 degres Q torp has been a great addition to do more damage with broadside. But than I don't use it on all my built either, I use plasma (with reman space set) and chroniton with 2 pce temporal set ( mirror star crusier and fleet heavy cruiser retrofit respectivly).

If you want numbers, here are some, my least powerful Cruiser is the Mirror Star cruiser, I use disruptors on that one and it does betweeen 2.5 and 3k dps. My most powerful one are ody and AC refit which top out at around 4k dps. Note that these number are constant dps not burst, can't do much burst with engineer on cruiser anyway.

I've been to cure space elite with 5 cruisers, 4 from my fleet and 1 random pug. We got optionnal so if you have well built cruisers even an engineer can do something usefull with it. And by the way the others optional from the other stf are easily done with 5 good captain on cruiser too. If you get a rainbow boat or subpar built you may miss the optionnal but with not with 5 good captains.
Jamal : Tactical space specialist. USS SledgeHammer, USS Bug Warrior and many others
E'Mc2 : Science Reman torp T'Varo, deadly annoyance
Kunmal: Tactical fed Klingon, ground specialist, USS Kanewaga
Ka -tet Tier 5 starbase and shipyard, almost Tier 5 sci. All other fleet property at max lvl
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 598
# 135
11-12-2012, 11:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
Please list all the cruisers that are involved into this nefarious '3 part' plan? As far as I know, your 'alot of new cruisers' is two, one for each faction. With the Vesta, we now have 3 total, but the Vesta is a sci ship, not a cruiser, so I still don't see your point. I'm not seeing this trend towards extra costs for cruisers you are speaking of unless you are talking about the'Fleet' versus 'C-store' versus 'basic' thing many ships have, in which case that is not a cruiser specific issue at all. Seems like you are again throwing out 'facts' without actually thinking about them. Also, in terms of Cryptic trying to get you to buy new things: a company trying to SELL products to me? Say it ain't so!

In addition, since when was the problem with cruisers (even non-odyssey cruisers) the lack of 'tankiness'? Did you maybe mean 'dps' here, or are you honestly saying that cruisers need both a tanking AND a damage buff?

Finally, he didn't say he only runs the Odyssey, so I don't know why you are accusing him of missing the big picture - it looks like he doesn't use any Galaxy or Excelsior classes, but the rest are effectively in his list.




Already been explained how, in fact, torps that crit for insane dmg is a bad idea. The rest of this, though, is I think highly revealing about where you are coming from. It seems to me that you feel like escorts should not have been the damage dealing class at all - I would wager that you are one of those people who puts stock in the idea that 'escort' as a class name means they should be there only to 'support' the main guns - i.e. the cruisers. I've never found that line of reasoning particularly compelling, but again, it shows that you aren't upset about the AMOUNT of damage being done by ships etc - just WHICH ships are doing it.
Listen, go back to the main page and read about Vesta. It is a science "cruiser." It does not have to be an Engineer ship to be considered a cruiser. Its not a destroyer, its not an escort, its not a scout ship, or recon ship. As a matter of fact there is a podcast talking about it. Go listen to that. On the list of ships, you can go ship shopping yourself. You got your own two eyes and fingertips. You can take your little character, roam around till you find the ship requisition store and look at the cruisers and science ships and what they do. Don't look for the Vesta there because its not released yet. You should look for answers before you try to argue.




Nobody asked for a heavy crit torpedo. Thats why i asked for a proportionate raise in DPS for torpedos. That heavy crit torpedo would be an extreme raise. The Borg cubes and gates are the only ships on the NPC side that can do that. Only game Bosses have extreme level in HP and DPS. The other non-boss NPC's are not hitting wth that level of DPS, so I don't know what you trying to get at?

Last edited by alexindcobra; 11-12-2012 at 12:03 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 445
# 136
11-12-2012, 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Listen, go back to the main page and read about Vesta. It is a science "cruiser." It does not have to be an Engineer ship to be considered a cruiser. Its not a destroyer, its not an escort, its not a scout ship, or recon ship. As a matter of fact there is a podcast talking about it. Go listen to that. On the list of ships, you can go ship shopping yourself. You got your own two eyes and fingertips. You can take your little character, roam around till you find the ship requisition store and look at the cruisers and science ships and what they do. Don't look for the Vesta there because its not released yet. You should look for answers before you try to argue.
I'm sorry, I thought we were using the term 'cruiser' as it is defined in the game, meaning an Engineering heavy vessel with 8 weapons, high hull hit points, moderate shields, low relative turn rate, 4 devices, and typically a power distribution of +5 to all systems. The Vesta doesn't fit ANY of these criteria, so I thought it was evident that it was not a cruiser in the sense that mattered for this thread. The reason I thought this, of course, was because that's how we WERE using the term until you got corrected repeatedly for not checking your facts and making wild, histrionic claims that you couldn't then back up. So now you are shifting the term to mean 'any ship that is described as a cruiser' in a vain attempt to score points off me by acting condescending to make it look like I'm the one who doesn't check my details. I'm not buying it, though.

Instead, let's see what happens when we accept your implied definition of a cruiser - according to some of the background info, both the Prometheus and Akira classes were considered heavy cruisers by the people who wrote the specs for them for the show, so I guess since the designers CALLED them that, it must be true. Remember, according to you, a ship doesn't have to be an Engineering ship to 'count' as a cruiser. In fact, it doesn't have to have any of the in-game criteria at all to be a cruiser, as long as someone used that magic word to describe it, so, pretty sure that means the Prometheus and Akira 'count'. I'll go a step further and point out that since there are at least SOME 'cruisers' in the game that can play the way you want, you should maybe run those, instead of complaining about how a ship that is not designed to do maximum damage does not, in fact, do maximum damage. Of course, since I run a Prometheus, I guess if you want to give 'cruisers' a general buff, go right ahead. Somehow I doubt that's the direction you want this to go, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexindcobra View Post
Nobody asked for a heavy crit torpedo. Thats why i asked for a proportionate raise in DPS for torpedos. That heavy crit torpedo would be an extreme raise. The Borg cubes and gates are the only ships on the NPC side that can do that. Only game Bosses have extreme level in HP and DPS. The other non-boss NPC's are not hitting wth that level of DPS, so I don't know what you trying to get at?
Again, I apologize, I thought we were talking about giving player ships torpedoes as powerful as those the NPCs use (because, of course, that was the request), and that you simply hadn't thought through the implications of doing that. Now I see that you in fact HAD considered those implications, and constructed an elaborate 'Goldilocks' scenario whereby you can buff torpedoes by an amount that makes them 'just right'. I assume the reason you didn't mention this before is because you figured it was so obvious we all would catch on, so I'm sorry we let you down. I eagerly anticipate your detailed proposal, complete with exact numbers so we can really examine it. Unless, of course, this is just you again trying to shift your argument away from something that was demonstrably a bad idea, and in fact you came up with this 'clarification' on the fly.

To be clear - torp damage now is fine, especially for PVE where it is trivially easy to knock down a shield facing and keep it down. Cruisers are fine, because they do more than enough DPS to contribute meaningfully in team-based PvP and PvE, they can add tons of survivability to teammates, and they are nearly indestructible when built correctly. Finally, Escorts are not super-ships in the game, nor is there a conspiracy by the devs to make them that way. Escorts have plenty of weaknesses, and there is no reason to make them obsolete just because you want cruisers to do a job they were never meant for.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 137
11-12-2012, 02:00 PM
*pulls out popcorn and sits down*

Oh goody, Alexindcobra has been hit by facts and opinions that don't match his. Let's watch what happens!
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,140
# 138
11-12-2012, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtshead View Post
In fact, it doesn't have to have any of the in-game criteria at all to be a cruiser, as long as someone used that magic word to describe it, so, pretty sure that means the Prometheus and Akira 'count
Sorry, the Prometheus was actually classed as a warship/battleship (I think the latter) rather than a cruiser
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,553
# 139
11-12-2012, 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkafei View Post
Sorry, the Prometheus was actually classed as a warship/battleship (I think the latter) rather than a cruiser
Not in this game. And seriously, why don't we just stick to classifications and abilities of this game? This game is not canon. This game is not armada, this game doesn't seem to follow a lot of pre-existing facts. So why don't we just STOP TRYING TO COMPARE IT TO CANON AND OTHER OUTSIDE OF GAME SOURCES. Just a thought.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Tired of Wasting EC and Time trying to get Superior Romulan Operative BOffs? Here's a cheap and easy way to get them, with an almost 100% chance of success.
Why the Devs can't make PvE content harder.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,140
# 140
11-12-2012, 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hereticknight085 View Post
Not in this game. And seriously, why don't we just stick to classifications and abilities of this game? This game is not canon. This game is not armada, this game doesn't seem to follow a lot of pre-existing facts. So why don't we just STOP TRYING TO COMPARE IT TO CANON AND OTHER OUTSIDE OF GAME SOURCES. Just a thought.
Hey... He was the one quoting canon, I simply corrected him...
This is their argument, like you I'm sitting and watching the fireworks unless and until someone needs their facts putting straight
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