Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,831
It has been brought to my attention that many feel a cruiser is underpowered in PvE and I am bored so here is a short list of the problems many but not all cruisers face.

Double Defense Penalty
To achieve the highest possible defense bonus you must be going at impulse speed ?23?. A cruiser has a lower defense bonus than an escort and a lower speed so they are forced to allocate more system energy to the engines to get a lower bonus. Does a ship get a lower amount of shield resistance from shield system power because of a low shield modifier? No they do not.

Resists and Heals Make the Tank
Let us be honest for a minute here. It typically does not matter what your maximum shield amount is, or hull when that tac cube gives you a dirty look. What matters is how high your resistances are from shield power and abilities along with how fast you can heal the damage. This makes the extra 'durability' of a cruiser translate into 'dies a few seconds later' because if the escort cannot tank it neither can that cruiser. Unless of course the team was selfish and refused to crossheal I suppose. In addition because of the crazy high amount % wise of combat damage/healing the passive ship regeneration amount differences are usually insignificant in determining if you tank the incoming damage or not.

+Damage Abilities Scale with Gear, Heals do Not
When you use that cannon rapid fire, or attack pattern beta, the bonus damage they grant is based on the amount of damage your ship and equipped weapons would do to begin with. On the other hand when you use emergency power to shields, or transfer shield strength you do not get a larger heal or more resistance because your ship is a cruiser. The escort next to you will get the same exact benefit aside from a minor passive shield regeneration amount assuming the same skills/aux power.

Its all about the boffs, and consoles
The reality of PvE is pretty simple, enough tank to survive and after that the more damage the merrier. Because Tac boffs offer the most damage, and the majority of needed heals/resist buffs are ensign eng/sci abilities, it stands to reason that a ship with high tac boff slots and low eng/sci boff slots would have better performance. This also extends to consoles where the eng resist consoles run into diminishing returns and you only need so many whereas the tac consoles do not have diminishing returns and maor damage the better.

MAD is BAD
A term from DnD 3E that means multiple ability score dependency and this can be extended/applied to STO as well in the subsystem energy area. An escorts only real concern is 125 weapons, enough engine to get max defense bonus and then they are free to dump the extra into shields. At the same time a cruiser wants over 125 weapons so their beams do some respectable damage, need more in engines for the bonus defense, and still want some auxiliary if they want to use a decent heal for a teammate and I haven't even covered shields yet. True they can cycle a pair of Epower abilities to mitigate that slightly at the cost of two more boff abilities but it is still a factor in their performance. This extends to Sci Vessels as well.

Disclaimer: I do not feel cruisers are extremely weak, useless, or anything of the sort. I do think they are underpowered for any content not requiring an uber-tank or uber-healer. I also think the idea of a true trinity or tank/healer in STO is not something I want to see content designed for as it is silly in concept and would harm the casual nature of the game.
Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 2
11-12-2012, 04:03 AM
DEVs play escorts. Don't count on them making cruisers viable DPV-dealers, they do not care.

AND even if average PvEr or PvPer would love to get more DPV on their cruisers (DPS is pretty decent already) if they do it without forcing cruiser captains to sacrifice something it would kill whatever is left of the balance. And knowing how "well" Cryptics deals with balance are - they will do something like this.

So - live with the fact that it's better to have escort for all STO content but team-played PvP.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 3
11-12-2012, 04:18 AM
Honestly. Cruisers are fine as they are...in princple. There are other things that make them look bad and sometimes stupid values on their state because of some magical dev spreadsheet that does not work in game as it works on paper.

1. The expectaion. Many players think that Cruisers are the ultimative weapon of destruction, this leads to disapointmen. They imagine Kirk and Picard in their big flagships but it is not how STO works.

2. Poor quality and too easy PvE content in STO, which does not force people to actually learn the mechanics and synergies of various skills

3. Thus all ships can tank decently with basic BO skills, and there is no need for actual healers or tanks in PVE. Thus in STO, PVE is only DPS race.

4. Which leads to threads like this.

A cruiser can be very tough ship, while it does deal contant dps pressure on target. It lacks the spikes and burst of escorts, but is better prepared for battle. It is also invaluable in its team support role.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,192
# 4
11-12-2012, 04:31 AM
The dungeons and dragons adventure party
Doesn't translate well at all to startrek

I don't think it's possible to balance it I'n any respectable
Way either. Remember the cruiser has to be fun
And competive and that's where it fails miserably .
Jellico....Engineer.....Stargazer KDF Tac
Saphire.. Science.....Ko'el Rom Kdf Tac
Leva........Tactical.....Mailu KDF Sci
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,359
# 5
11-12-2012, 05:17 AM
I thought one did gain a better SHield Resist score the higher one's SHield Power was ingame.
STO is very much an Adam One culture and completely inarticulate about Adam Two.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,395
# 6
11-12-2012, 05:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarathos1978 View Post
DEVs play escorts. Don't count on them making cruisers viable DPV-dealers, they do not care.

AND even if average PvEr or PvPer would love to get more DPV on their cruisers (DPS is pretty decent already) if they do it without forcing cruiser captains to sacrifice something it would kill whatever is left of the balance. And knowing how "well" Cryptics deals with balance are - they will do something like this.

So - live with the fact that it's better to have escort for all STO content but team-played PvP.
If devs play escorts, why are there so many more cruisers in the game, especially Klinkside?

vids and guides and stuff

[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,460
# 7
11-12-2012, 06:20 AM
KDF battlecruisers are in a whole other category compared to Federation cruisers. A turn rate buff may not seem that significant, but agility is the difference between engaging with some of your weapons from 8km and engaging with all of them from 1km. If you have two cruisers with equal loadout, skills, and abilities, and one has a turn rate of 10 and the other has a turn rate of 6, the more agile cruiser will do more damage on average. A lot more.
Captain
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,030
# 8
11-12-2012, 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Honestly. Cruisers are fine as they are...in principle. There are other things that make them look bad and sometimes stupid values on their state because of some magical dev spreadsheet that does not work in game as it works on paper.

1. The expectation. Many players think that Cruisers are the ultimate weapon of destruction, this leads to disappointment. They imagine Kirk and Picard in their big flagships but it is not how STO works.

2. Poor quality and too easy PvE content in STO, which does not force people to actually learn the mechanics and synergies of various skills

3. Thus all ships can tank decently with basic BO skills, and there is no need for actual healers or tanks in PVE. Thus in STO, PVE is only DPS race.

4. Which leads to threads like this.

A cruiser can be very tough ship, while it does deal constant dps pressure on target. It lacks the spikes and burst of escorts, but is better prepared for battle. It is also invaluable in its team support role.
I agree with this sentiment.

I was a tactical officer but now I'm an engineer, and I knew full well that in an eng cruiser I was not going to be the DPS murder machine I was. I accepted that and built my new character with a focus on support.

And I am loving it, in fact I am having more fun in my cruiser than I did in my old escort. It may not be a required role in STO, and yes I won't reap the rewards a higher DPS player could earn - but I have managed to score well in fleet actions just by playing my part.
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 69
# 9
11-12-2012, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Honestly. Cruisers are fine as they are...in princple. There are other things that make them look bad and sometimes stupid values on their state because of some magical dev spreadsheet that does not work in game as it works on paper.

1. The expectaion. Many players think that Cruisers are the ultimative weapon of destruction, this leads to disapointmen. They imagine Kirk and Picard in their big flagships but it is not how STO works.

2. Poor quality and too easy PvE content in STO, which does not force people to actually learn the mechanics and synergies of various skills

3. Thus all ships can tank decently with basic BO skills, and there is no need for actual healers or tanks in PVE. Thus in STO, PVE is only DPS race.

4. Which leads to threads like this.

A cruiser can be very tough ship, while it does deal contant dps pressure on target. It lacks the spikes and burst of escorts, but is better prepared for battle. It is also invaluable in its team support role.
Yup, I think you nailed it. If the devs added some STF's with a capture and hold component then all of a sudden tank cruisers would be more in vogue. The cruisers could be tweaked a bit to make them a bit more fun to play, but they will almost always take a second seat to DPS machines as things are.

I think the expectations part is the only real reason why we so see so many cruisers flying in sector space. Honestly, I thought STO was going to be a simplified Starfleet Command with an MMO captain, wow was I wrong!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,332
# 10
11-12-2012, 01:37 PM
I would definitely say that cruisers do need more energy output, both in max capacity for category (+ points per) and overall energy (+5 points total). That would probably give the cruiser a tad bit more oomph, but not too much.
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