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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,202
# 11
11-12-2012, 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
"Overall cost" refers to a mostly-internal metric we use to measure the relative value of different items within the Holdings system. Every Project is assigned a target "overall cost" and the Design team determines what requirements to place on the Project in order to meet that cost.

For the recent changes, the value given to a White Doff in these calculations was increased to about 166% its previous value. Green Doff relative value went up to about 133% of its previous. But at the same time, we shifted most quality requirements down to White. Since a Blue or a Purple was previously (and still is) valued higher than a White, the number of inputs required had to increase in order to meet the targeted "Overall cost" for the projects that were altered.

Does that clarify at all? Sorry, haven't had my coffee yet.
So if a project required 120 doffs valued at 100 points that would be 12000 worth of doffs required and then divide that by 166 and you gets 72 white doffs should be the new requirement for said project.

As for green req dropping to white the projects that took both did a 2:1 ratio of white to greens mostly so I would assume that will stay the same.

TLDR Tier 3 project 72/73 doffs Tier 2 project half that. If I understood him properly.
Empire Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,120
# 12
11-12-2012, 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjackwidow View Post
I think any size fleets will be ... overwhelmed ... with the cost in common DOffs. Agree with another poster regarding the need to change the requirements. Personally, I can fill all the purple requirements myself if need be. Anyone in a small-to-mid-sized fleet could as well, if they are willing to do DOff missions for a bit. There are plenty of missions that reward purple duty officers.

I believe we are going to see some massive amounts of required common duty officers, especially for those just hitting the Tier III projects.

--snip--
I think one of the biggest problems (and I'll point back to Bort's earlier detailed post) ... I think sometimes the live so much in equations and formulas that they forget the human equations of the burdens being placed on already taxed and stretched players.

ADDITIONAL: I know the devs are nose down trying to get it all done and throw their hearts into this, but I worry still about tunnel vision.

A HUGE thank you to Cryptic for the Mogh-class battle cruiser!

Last edited by genhauk; 11-12-2012 at 12:07 PM.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 135
# 13
11-12-2012, 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by genhauk View Post
I think one of the biggest problems (and I'll point back to Bort's earlier detailed post) ... I think sometimes the live so much in equations and formulas that they forget the human equations of the burdens being placed on already taxed and stretched players.

ADDITIONAL: I know the devs are nose down trying to get it all done and throw their hearts into this, but I worry still about tunnel vision.
I agree. I like math and numbers. But in the end, this is a game. If it feels like work, you failed as a game designer, no matter if the requirements are mathematically fair.
"Once more unto the breech..."

Rogue Shipyard Blog
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 97
# 14
11-12-2012, 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarkean View Post
I agree. I like math and numbers. But in the end, this is a game. If it feels like work, you failed as a game designer, no matter if the requirements are mathematically fair.
There's no such thing as "mathematically fair." If you fail on the math, your economy potentially erupts into uncontrolled chaos, filled with crazy exploits, incorrect values and earnings loopholes.
Ensign
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 15
# 15
11-12-2012, 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pantsmaster916 View Post
There's no such thing as "mathematically fair." If you fail on the math, your economy potentially erupts into uncontrolled chaos, filled with crazy exploits, incorrect values and earnings loopholes.
One could be absolutely correct with the math (although I strongly disagree this is the case here, math isn't one of Cryptic's strong points), but still fail the human equation... in which case you then have to deal with the very real math of player loss.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 27
# 16
11-12-2012, 12:48 PM
So, why not just make it so you can still submit greens/blues/purples to a job, but just make them worth 5/10/20 common doffs or whatever?
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,363
# 17
11-12-2012, 12:57 PM
To answer a few earlier questions, and expound on what I said in an earlier reply:

Players can use the amount of Fleet Credits they receive in return for donating an item as a judgement of its "value" to the system.

Before the changes referenced in this thread, White Dept-specific Duty Officers would return 150 Fleet Credits per Doff that was donated.

After these changes, they now give 250 Fleet Credits per Doff.

This is where we derive the 166% figure I originally quoted. (250/150=166%)

This same figure is a relative measurement to what we use internally to determine a Project's targeted cost.

So if a project previously required 1000 White Dept-Specific Duty Officers, it now only requires 600. (1000*150)/250=600

For reference, here are the Fleet Credit rewards previously granted in return for Duty Officer contributions (with updated values in parentheses, if they are still in use):

White-Unrestricted = 75 (250)
White-Dept = 150 (300)
White-Spec = 300
Green-Dept = 300
Green-Spec = 600
Blue-Dept = 500
Blue-Spec = 1000
Purple-Dept = 1000
Purple-Spec = 2000

Using these figures, you should be able to quickly figure out how many Duty Officers are now required for a particular project.

For example:
A project that previously required 15 Purple Astrometrics (Spec) Duty Officers (T5 Transwarp Facility upgrade), will now require x# of White Science Dept Officers instead. To determine the amount:

(15*2000) = 30000/300 = 100 Duty Officers

Sometimes the math doesn't work out to be so pretty, and in those cases we've either rounded the new Doff values or altered the Dilithium cost (since Duty Officers are given a Dilithium value in the Holdings system, for determining project cost) to make the final values work out to a nice round figure.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Cryptic Studios Team
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,363
# 18
11-12-2012, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mellestadsto View Post
So, why not just make it so you can still submit greens/blues/purples to a job, but just make them worth 5/10/20 common doffs or whatever?
Our current Holdings system does not allow for this sort of "or" statements in terms of relative inputs & outputs. We could allow you to input Green+ quality doffs into the system, but we cannot modify the output (Fleet Credit / Progress) based on what was donated, so regardless of what you donated you'd always get the same result as if you'd input a White.

It may be something we can do in the future, but not at this time.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Jeremy Randall
Cryptic - Systems Design
"Play smart!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Kurland here...
Starfleet Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 412
# 19
11-12-2012, 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borticuscryptic View Post
<snipped>
For example:
A project that previously required 15 Purple Astrometrics (Spec) Duty Officers (T5 Transwarp Facility upgrade), will now require x# of White Science Dept Officers instead. To determine the amount:

(15*2000) = 30000/300 = 100 Duty Officers

Sometimes the math doesn't work out to be so pretty, and in those cases we've either rounded the new Doff values or altered the Dilithium cost (since Duty Officers are given a Dilithium value in the Holdings system, for determining project cost) to make the final values work out to a nice round figure.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the answer, let's see if I can figure this out.

Upgrade Starbase to Tier IV previously required 100 (non-spec) blue duty officers.
(200*500) = 100,000/75 = 1333 common duty officers (probably rounded to 1350)

Upgrade Shipyard to Tier IV previously required 100 blue Tac or Sec
(100*500) = 50,000/150 = 333 common tac or sec duty officers (350-ish)

Not as bad as I thought, still a lot of commons to hold/come up with.

So - are ALL projects going to common duty officers, or are some still going to require purple?
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Rule of Acquisition #57: Good customers are as rare as latinum. Treasure them.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 158
# 20
11-12-2012, 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjackwidow View Post
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the answer, let's see if I can figure this out.

Upgrade Starbase to Tier IV previously required 100 (non-spec) blue duty officers.
(200*500) = 100,000/75 = 1333 common duty officers (probably rounded to 1350)

Upgrade Shipyard to Tier IV previously required 100 blue Tac or Sec
(100*500) = 50,000/150 = 333 common tac or sec duty officers (350-ish)

Not as bad as I thought, still a lot of commons to hold/come up with.

So - are ALL projects going to common duty officers, or are some still going to require purple?
You got numbers wrong . its 250 for first. 75 used to. it will be 250 or 300 .)
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