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Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,984
# 31
11-12-2012, 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post
i'd go the other way. How about consumable team devices for SNB or ApA. grant the bonus to all members of your team, i mean since engs don't have a problem according to some this wouldn't be one either, or would it?
You really want to put ALL captains out of a job?
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,465
# 32
11-12-2012, 12:32 PM
The issue to me is the "tank" ability it's designed for isn't useful in the current state of PvP. So, the question is do you change the career or the state of PvP. Personally, I'd prefer it be the State of PvP to an Open Sector PvP w/drawn out seiges which rewarded sustained damage,etc. Since, it's not likely to happen I guess letting Engineers remote their self captain abilities to an ally would be better than nothing.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,549
# 33
11-12-2012, 02:09 PM
None of the three career choices provide the typical meatshield tanking. Selecting an Eng instead of a Sci or Tac does not provide you innate increased damage resistances nor increased shield/hull points.

Engineer:

Self Shield Regen & Shield Damage Resist
Self Power Drain Resistance
Self Hull Heal, Shield Heal, & Subsystem Repair
Self/Ally Power & Power Transfer Buff
Team Damage Resistance, Hull Repair & Power Buff

Science:

AoE Damage Resist Debuff & Anti-Stealth Stuff
Target Buff Stripper & Ability Recharge Debuff
AoE Friendly Energy Resistance
Summon Pets (w/ a myriad of abilities)
Team Shield Damage Resistance, Shield Healing Buff, & Power Drain Resist

Tactical:

Self Damage/Crit Hit/Crit Damage & Turn Rate Buff
Target Damage Resist & Stealth Debuff
Team Tac BOFF Ability Recharge Buff
Self Conditional Damage Buff
Team Damage, Accuracy, & Defense Buff

So what's "Defensive" up there?

Engineer - 5
Science - 5
Tactical - 4

So what's "Offensive" up there?

Engineer - 1
Science - 3
Tactical - 5

So what does that add up* to up there?

Engineer - 6
Science - 8
Tactical - 9

Yes, that's entirely too basic and simple - and - does not take into consideration the extent something is "Defensive" or "Offensive" - but - it's very telling in what you see from the general complaints about the Engineer, no?

It's not a 5-4-3/3-4-5 where the totals add up to 8.
It's not even a 5-3-1/1-3-5 where the totals add up to 6.
It's 6-8-9...

Do the Engineer 5 Defensive Abilities balance against the Tactical's 5 Offensive Abilities?
Does the Engineer's Single Offensive Ability balance against the Tactical's 4 Defensive Abilities?
Then compare Eng vs. Sci, Sci vs. Tac, etc.

It becomes very clear that the innate captain abilities were not balanced in the least with any thought to PvP... they're just things that PvE folks "might" enjoy.

Outside of Elite STFs - the Engineer kind of rocks and rolls, eh? The damage it can do, while minor compared to Tac or even Sci - is more than enough to handle PvE. Then you add in the opportunity for them to play a "tank" or "healer" - and tada, you've got stuff. The Sci can run as anything and the Tac's great for those that want to blow crap up real fast.

It screams PvE options/choices... and outside of ESTFs - it works pretty damn well.

PvP - where you want to look at balancing the career choices against each other - well... it fails miserably.

So the question somewhat becomes - can there be some form of PvP balance of the careers that does not ruin that PvE side for folks? Heck, as a bonus - could it not only not ruin that side but could it actually improve it?

I'm not a fan of homogenization in the least - I don't believe that everybody should be able to do everything equally well. It shouldn't be a case that it doesn't matter if you select Eng, Sci, or Tac - they can all DPS, HPS, Tank, Buff, Debuff as well as the other. Nope, not in the least - don't want that.

I'm a fan of balance though.

But face it... there are so many things all wrapped around each other - that if you were to change the career abilities; there would be so much else that you would have to change as well. You'd basically be designing STO2. It's not going to happen.

So either you're having fun or you're not. If you're not...well... STO is STO, it is what it is - either you can find something you enjoy or you move on....
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 34
11-12-2012, 02:42 PM
I think we should separate the issue of cruisers and engineers. Cruisers are fine, although the difference between the turn rate between cruisers and top escorts (bugs) is somewhere else then it used to at launch.

Engineers however...well they lack "something". But maybe if the game moved from DPS Race oriented to something else, engineers would be more viable.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,549
# 35
11-12-2012, 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
Engineers however...well they lack "something". But maybe if the game moved from DPS Race oriented to something else, engineers would be more viable.
Look at an Eng on the ground vs an Eng in space... they're missing a bunch. It's like a completely different career.
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,671
# 36
11-13-2012, 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
I think we should separate the issue of cruisers and engineers. Cruisers are fine, although the difference between the turn rate between cruisers and top escorts (bugs) is somewhere else then it used to at launch.

Engineers however...well they lack "something". But maybe if the game moved from DPS Race oriented to something else, engineers would be more viable.
Yeah, like that is going to happen. Rework 100% of exisiting PvE content, sorry if I don't want to wait for this
Joined 06.10
PvP 2010-2011
PvP 2012-2013
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,643
# 37
11-13-2012, 04:02 AM
okay, I'm currently levelling a KDF Engineer, and leaning heavily on two places: Ker'rat, and the PvP ques, and avoiding the canned missions/standard PvE stuff.

My observations, running a BoP with an Engie...

I seem to be living a lot longer than I was playing either Sci, or Tac, and it's NOT because I've become a better player-I still suck, and know it.

BUT...

my Engie is doing more damage in PvP, more often, than I am used to seeing, and surviving more reliably than I'm used to seeing.

Currently sitting at L35 with mostly-commander-grade-gear (I can't seem to accumulate enough Dil. for good stuff, nor EC-something about how PvP really doesn't pay out...)

Fact, the only GOOD gear I have, came from unlocks gotten on my other toons (so I have a Plas-leech console, yay, had that on the Sci too, and the engie's doing better...), and whatever lucky drops I get off actually "Doing" the Ker'rat missions between arriving groups of Feds.


Now, I admit: I use Doffs quite a bit for this, and my stack in the Bridge officer department is heavy on tacs and sci types, and I've been delaying spending on point distribution to try and build toward what most of the advice threads say work in PvP...(and I'm reading and re-reading Hilbert's guide, but translating from that doc's Fed-centricity...)

But here's the deal: I picked an engie to see if, somehow, I could make it workable in PvP without massive fantasy changes that will never occur.

Results have been pretty educational-a standard "Escort build" layout for bridge officers on a bird of prey works for an engie toon, I suspect that, on a Vor'cha or Mirror Vor'cha, I'll have to adjust my thinking and layout, but so far, it seems that the Hilbert guide is spot-on as far as how to fit up a ship.


Not having APA means leaning heavily on other attack patterns provided by Bridge officers, and leaning heavily on Conn Doffs to keep those patterns going, likewise, I suspect running a more torp-centric layout on a Cruiser will allow me to make use of Projectile Doffs if (as seems the case) I continue to be unable to pull Cannon Doffs or find them for a reasonable rate on the Exchange.

Torp Doffs are all over the place, so they MAY prove to be of some use, esp. if I go Tetryon/quantum Torpedoes for weapons fit (or Photon torps), or maybe Polaron/Photon combo. Point being, as an Engie, I don't have to waste as much space in my Boff slots on shield heals for myself, so I can push more toward offensive buffs or something.

I'll know more at L40, but I have this suspicion that maybe Engies can be effective with out a major rules/function reboot...just have to figure out HOW.
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,549
# 38
11-13-2012, 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickngo View Post
I'll know more at L40, but I have this suspicion that maybe Engies can be effective with out a major rules/function reboot...just have to figure out HOW.
The only difference between the three career choices in space are the five innate abilities. Everything else is the same...
Maal, Klingon, Mogh - Vegar, Orion, Marauder - R'ebel, Romulan, Haakona
Willard the Rat, Reman, F.T'varo - Rave, J.Trill, Kar'Fi - Mysk, Gorn, Varanus
Kopor, Nausicaan, Guramba - Nivuh, Ferasan, B'rel - Venit, Lethean, M.Qin
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 39
11-13-2012, 04:24 AM
Maybe it would be better if all space skills on their respective tiers, did the same, but achieved it through other means.


For example:

"Attack pattern Alpha" - increasing brute weapon strenght
"Attack pattern Science" - increasing of dmg/effect of science skills
"Attack pattern Engineering" - increasing accuracy / lowering weapon energy drain

"Fire on My Mark" - reducing enemy hull resistances
"Sensor scan" - lowering enemy sci resistances
"Engineering whatever" - lowering enemy defence

etc.etc.
Rihannsu
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,123
# 40
11-13-2012, 04:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by virusdancer View Post
Look at an Eng on the ground vs an Eng in space... they're missing a bunch. It's like a completely different career.
How would you build the five engineer captain abilities for space to reflect what engineers do on the ground?
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