Commander
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 363
# 31
11-12-2012, 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by devorasx View Post

Fair enough. You guys can show off how to win against fleets who use extensivly P2W,
Make no mistake, if we were in the interest of "showing off" we wouldn't be making videos with our most sacred secret, our target calling.

We want the competitive nature of PvP to be enhanced by our knowledge of coordinated PvP. This can only be demonstrated in our videos.

I have said what I needed to say on the subject matter. I have posted a video disproving the argument about P2W being the be all end all. I have posted a video disproving experience being the be all end all as well. These posts should act as encouragement to those who desire to build a PvP team/fleet.

Because at the end of the day, it is in these videos that demonstrate one thing. A group of guys, just talking in a video on which ability use, when, how, and why. If these videos are deciphered by people enthusiastic about competitive PvP, then they will use these useful videos as "playbooks" or "guides" like in any sport.

We aren't here to gloat. If that were the case I would be posting uninformative screenshots of final scores vs other premades. We posted videos of obstacles that were met and overcome, that's all.

Thanks for your time.

Enter "Turkish RP Heroes" on youtube for more of our videos.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,495
# 32
11-12-2012, 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquitaine985 View Post
With TBR being what it currently is, you could say "now" then...

It's just not feasible to go into an arena, get tossed around like a beach ball by the other team and told after you should have been prepared. With some going in with 2+ copies of TBR you'd need to go in with that sole thing in mind, and that's just madness. It can be said if you end up against a team of carriers stocked up with spam, or a pack of escorts etc. At the end of the day unless you know what you can expect to face, it's a gamble.
Starting w/your last point, I think there are ways to adjust builds to counter things fairly quickly in a match. But, espcially when pugging if you don't have the varients preset than it can be more trouble than it's worth. If I don't have a varient preset I'll often just eat my loses. Eg, I usually will have a CRF varient on one tray and a CSV varient on another tray, so I just switch a boff and a tray from 1-3 to say 1,2,4.

Imo, ever since a Dev annouced TBR wasn't being calculated properly and a fix was in the pipeline anyone who used it was a exploiting if they knew it or not. If they are aware you could report them for using known exploits (I know nothing may come of it). Exploits should be treated differently than imbalances and or P2W setups. This is on Cryptic to ban reported people from PvP if people are found to knowingly exploit mechanics in PvP.

As Havam implied P2W is ubiquitious now. It's not like 1-2 items and 1-2 ships are P2W. There are even degrees of P2W now, lotto ships/fleet ships generally >>> early C-Store ships. Further, there are abilities which are unbalanced which are not P2W, eg Tech Doffs. For every 1-2 things people rightly complain about in any given match, I could probably find another 6-12 things people are using in the match which are P2W and or unbalanced.

Personally, I have various P2W items/ships I use regularly and a couple I don't use except to counter annoy someone, eg I won't use AMS unless someone is abusing an exploit like TBR or Spamming a crap ton of siphons or AMS. But, what I may concider abusive someone may not and vice versa. Trying to get 2 people to agree would take awhile. Trying to get all PvPers to agree would be futile.

I'm at the point where I just try to point out the really abusive potential of some things, and clarify if something is working as intended or broken.
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 868
# 33
11-12-2012, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxottoman View Post
You have a unique sense of what is 'deemed' fair.

Sad Pandas, Critz, TSI all host a very experienced roster.

TRH does not have an as experienced roster, yet we compete.

Doing things correctly, with coordination, and having pregame communication does not require "experience". This is the fundamental problem with people that do not PvP, they give up like you, and give answers that comforts them the most. In this case, for you it's "Oh they're just more experienced".

None of my guys thought they would be where they are today. Majority of them began when free to play started.

Let me give example of what a well versed pug group can do. It wasn't experience that won them this match, it was communication. The guy recording the match (sorry Hank) doesn't have an engineering commander ability on his tray! Despite this they had an incredible performance in the face of "experience" you have crowned.

Communication/Coordination is the King of PvP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zew7j_IuAiE
Oh I do agree, a well coordinated PUG can spank a premade happily, and Id be willing to be that the SP, Crtiz and TSI teams will probably admit to it having happened at some point - I know we will as it has to use before.

The point is that communication is vital to teamplay in an MMO, be it STF, PVP, or whatever else. If you want to make PVP 'fair' I guess the only answer is to ensure everyone is in a premade with preplanned communication methods.

Now please don't think me being rude, it's not my intention, my point is that it's something that can't be truly achieved in any reasonable fashion.

I do tend to agree though, target calling does make a heck of a difference!

Quote:
Originally Posted by havam View Post

instead of going with a sportsmen like attitude, as they do with CO pvp, befitting the IP , cryptic wants OP toys to fuel greed and impulse buys. They either don;t understand the concept of powercreep (which would make them very very bad at their jobs) or they don't care. While we're at it this is cryptic's game, not PWE's, or atari's, or the liberal media's, or whatever scape goat the CDF likes to raise.
I hate to say it but I do increasingly feel that it's a 'don't care' attitude on this one. I'm still of the hope that one day we'll see a season dedicated to making PVP into something worthwhile, because at the minute it's sorely lacking.
Career Officer
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 646
# 34
11-12-2012, 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tobar26th View Post
I hate to say it but I do increasingly feel that it's a 'don't care' attitude on this one. I'm still of the hope that one day we'll see a season dedicated to making PVP into something worthwhile, because at the minute it's sorely lacking.
Well, we have been asking for more maps, more PvP content, more PvP sets, etc.. since day one and we see where that has gotten us.. arguing over broken PVP items, lockbox ships, P2W, and so on.

Maybe there should be a "contribute to PvP fund".. ya know.. like when you renew your license plates or do your taxes how you can contribute to an endangered wildlife species etc?? Well, perhaps every time we purchase something that costs Zen, maybe that little checkbox should exist.

Farbeit for me to give Cryptic any further gouging ideas though, but at least at that point, we can say that we are paying for them to actually give us something, because PvP in STO is an endangered playstyle.
my new saying is "cryptic made me do it" in lieu of the the "devil"
Member since January 2010. I AM NOT A PWE FAN!!!!
Captain
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,441
# 35
11-12-2012, 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfomega View Post
+1 Perhaps the OP can take items from these responses and make a generalized list (which is the first step). Perhaps Borticus will kindly sticky this thread if the OP creates a list in his first post?

1) I know that many big fleets out there will not use SNB doffs (yes, even post nerf) unless they are being used on them.

2) TBR is definitely broken and and is a no-no in fair play

3) "Danoob" shuttles

Those are to get the list started (at least until Tuesday for one of them)

While no one can stop people from using exploits, broken items and the like, at least the knowledge can be increased and culminated into a "community endorsed" list to show cryptic what is wrong about their balancing.

Make this thread serve multiple purposes.
As much as I would like to do this, I really shouldn't. In my opinion, there are still too many doubts about whether something is broken or not. Yes, there are a few which are certainly agreed upon/declared by devs to be currently broken, but putting anything else onto such a list would entail plenty of argumentation from both those with legitimate concerns and those who just don't like being told what to do.

However, if the PvP community can truly achieve consensus on what is broken, I would say that such a list could be helpful to show devs what we want fixed in one central location. Something like a "Broken of the Month" bulletin?

Or maybe we can just post a list of things that we say are potentially broken?

Moving on, from the discussion so far, there are some key points I notice:

P2W seems synonymous with being unfair to many of you.

Coordination is capable of beating people using such abilities/broken abilities in general, but is usually practical only in premades. I am not saying that PUGs won't be able to team up and beat them, but I must admit such things are rare in my experience. The fundamental issue here seems to be the divide between premade and queue games.

Adaptability is a key factor in beating people using such abilities. For a number of the broken abilities, there are some counters available (FaW/TS/CSV for pet spam, PH for TBR). Hence, one has to be prepared with the counters for such abilities before entering the queues (Such as with a reserve BOFF). However, there are some builds in which preparation would jeopardise the synergy of the rest of the build. (Taking PH on an escort would reduce science heals, for example?)
Captain
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,021
# 36
11-12-2012, 10:13 PM
There's an attitude of equal opportunity broken for many things - they don't care that it's broken as long as both sides can run the broken goodies. If you're not running the broken goodies, that's on you...

...there's an attitude of things being broken - so don't use it. Folks agree not to run the stuff with they fight.

Those tend to be the two attitudes, eh?

Still, even with that first group - I don't, hrmm, really say anything until that side starts the chest bumping and the bragging. That, seriously, I just do not get. It makes me think of that episode of South Park, where the other team doesn't show for the pee wee hockey game - so the professional guys play and slaughter the kids and act like they just won the Stanley Cup. I think some of them have used cheese so long, they've lost touch with the reality of it - thinking they're oozing awesome sauce... but it's just runny cheese.

No doubt, some of them can easily put the cheese aside and kick butt - but they tend not to be the ones running their mouths after dropping a grenade in a barrel of fish, eh?

Willard the Rat, Klingon Science Officer

Swordsman has a bounce to it...
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 37
11-13-2012, 12:35 AM
Fairness in computer game is kinda myth. It only matters if you have clean conscience for yourself. As for others, well some people like to win at all cost, some people prefer to win with honor. For me personaly it is not important if I loose or win, but how I loose and how I win.

Losing to a Bug with AMS and graviton pulse sucks, yaht. But killing them without any P2W is much much more sweatier.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 165
# 38
11-13-2012, 02:20 AM
Fair?

If the best team wins, it's fair... with a few exceptions:

1. Pay2Win. If the cost of very powerful items exceed what the general player can afford, the game will become pay2win, and not fair.
- EC P2W. Items that can be bought in the EC exchange at extreme prices. (=Bug ship, SNB doffs, etc.)
- Time P2W. "You may earn this throug gameplay" is not a valid excuse if the time it takes is too long. Time is money, and spending a lot of time in game equals spending a lot of money. Applies to anything costing Dili or EC.
- Zen P2W. Items that cost a lot to buy in the Z-store. (= lockbox ships, etc.).
- Hardware P2W. If the game rewards having exceptionally good harware, or if you have shorter response time by living closer to the server etc. (=: Solar Wind map, etc.)

Ofc, this is all graded... you should be expected to spend a certain amount of money and time in game, but somewhere the line of what can reasonably be expected is crossed.

2. If the best team is gimping itself. And yes, there are valid reasons for doing this. If you are certain that a part of the game is ruining the gameplay and/or fun, you can abstain from using it. This helps make the game better, but may result in unfair matches. (examples are siphon drones and broken TBR).

3. Cheats or hax. Need I say more?

In general, if one team feels the cost of some advantages is too high, and if this feeling is justified, the game will be unfair. The cost may be in money, time or gameplay/fun. How much of each of these are you willing to sacrifice to be competitive?

In a fair game, that is not broken, the majority of dedicated pvp players will afford to be competitive, they will have sufficient time to be competittive, and they will be able to use all available options without ruining their own fun, or the fun of a equally skilled team.

Where in this does STO fail? A matter of opinion...

Last edited by pvehero; 11-13-2012 at 02:23 AM.
Captain
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,192
# 39
11-13-2012, 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvehero View Post
In a fair game, that is not broken, the majority of dedicated pvp players will afford to be competitive, they will have sufficient time to be competittive, and they will be able to use all available options without ruining their own fun, or the fun of a equally skilled team.
That should be written in gold. +1
Lieutenant
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 39
# 40
11-13-2012, 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalnar83 View Post
That should be written in gold. +1
You dont need p2w consoles. get a tactical, max your tractor beam repulsors and youre good to go. simple isnt?
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